A big ground, but are we a big club?
We all like to think that we are the biggest, but exactly how big a club is Newcastle United? What do we have that other teams don’t have, that makes us special?
I’m sorry – if you were expecting me to provide you with the answer there, I’m afraid I can’t. The fact is that every team claims that they have the best fans, and that the fans are passionate, and that football is more than just a game, so why are we different?
Suddenly we find we no longer attract the big players (apart from possibly Sol Campbell, but in all fairness he hadn’t played for a while and had just come back off his Honeymoon). We have players from the continent that I’ve never heard of turning us down.
We now appear to be a bit of a Channel Tunnel, through which players from the Continent can find their way to the Premier League, then spend a season or two wandering round looking for a job, while we pick up their recruitment expenses.
I suspect there are less French nationals using the actual tunnel than there are being brought in by us.
I’d hate to see what happens the first time a league match coincides with a French Bank Holiday.
We often jump up and down shouting silly things like “We don’t want players who don’t want to play for us!”. I never actually understood that one. Do we mean they should love us so much they play for free, or are we saying they should be gushing enthusiasm and grinning from ear to ear all day?
Football is a job. A lot of us, certainly me included, absolutely hate the job we do. If I had to stand in front of a camera and tell the world what a great company I work for, I don’t think I’d be very convincing, and I’m pretty sure the lens would need a rub down with a wet-wipe fairly soon.
I have enough trouble convincing the wife that I like her cooking. There again she says size is not important so what the hell does she know?
I’m back on the old “loyalty” tack again here – why would a 20 year old French player want to play for Newcastle United?
As far back as he can remember we have been a team struggling to maintain Premier League status. A team making more headlines off the pitch than on. A team that seems to think that a pint of milk lasts longer than a manger. And I’m not talking UHT here.
So why would they come and play for us? It can only be the opportunity to get into the Premier League and showcase their talents. Or maybe they are so bad they are on a crap salary?
I’m pretty sure that you can buy a computer program where you can select the sycophantic superlatives that the new signings reel off at their press conferences. “Blah blah blah HUGE CLUB blah blah blah blah FANTASTIC HISTORY blah blah blah AMAZING FANS blah blah blah (insert superlative here) blah blah blah, and I LOOK FORWARD TO PLAYING IN EUROPE NEXT YEAR!!”
OK, so we have a stadium that can seat more than 50,000 fans, a cauldron of atmosphere and fervour that was once considered a fortress. But if today’s ‘blogs are to be believed the fans only turn up now so they can arrange their next anti-Ashley demo.
“Lets demonstrate in the car park”, “Lets chant thought provoking messages like Ashley Out!”, and here’s my favourite of the moment “Let’s turn our backs on him and jump up and down”. Oh yeah , that’ll show him!
All rather strange really when you consider that amongst all the uncertainty that’s floating around, all the perceived lies and lack of communication, if there’s one thing that’s firmly known and understood by all, including Ashley, it’s the fact that the fans don’t like him.
Do we just think he’s forgotten? Needs reminding?
We need to accept the fact that he‘s trying to get the club back into the black, and until that happens “prudent survival” is the name of the game, and not a lot is going to make him change his mind.
I love the way we are doing this at the beginning of the season when there’s still three weeks of the transfer window left. There is a possibility, however slender, that we might actually do well, but let’s not let hope spoil a good bitch, eh?
Apparently the FA has decided that if you want to play in Europe you are only allowed to lose £40 million over three seasons, and they insist that rich owners will no longer be allowed to just keep pumping in more and more dosh.
In this respect by trying to become solvent, we’re almost ahead of the game. Of course some might say that as this is a proviso for getting into Europe then it doesn’t concern us, and wont for a while, but that would be a tad on the negative side.
Sheikh Mansour bin Zayed Al Nahyan, the guy who popped down to the corner shop one day and came back with a kilo of dates, a pint of Laban and Manchester City, is said to be worth upwards of 15 billion pounds. His family, the rulers of the United Arab Emirates, are worth more than a trillion. My own personal experiences of Arabic accounting philosophy would suggest they are worth much more.
Amazingly, out of nowhere, City and Etihad Airways have announced a sponsorship deal worth by 100 million pounds. Just out of interest the Etihad Board’s Chairman and Vice Chairman just happen to be the Manchester City owner’s’ brothers. As long as the owner is not just pumping more an more dosh in.
A fairly reserved estimate is that Manchester City’s owners’ family are 1000 times wealthier than Ashley.
Abramovich, the poor kid on this particular block, is only 10 times richer,
If you go down the list we struggle to be “Big” in that department.
Looking at the last available figures our turnover puts us in 17th place above only Blackpool, Wigan and West Brom. So we’re hardly very big in that department either, are we?
Here’s a really interesting one. What about wage bill as a percentage of turnover?
The last accounts show that 90% of our turnover went on wages. Only three clubs were higher. It’s hardly surprising that Man City are one of them at 104%. The other two were Wigan on 91% and Blackpool on an astonishing 144%. And we all know what happened to them. Of course it’s also worth pointing out that percentage would have improved thanks to our return to the Premier League.
Wow. Maybe we are a big club after all?
What about debt? Where do we stand there?
We apparently have debts totalling £150 million. That’s the 4th largest in the league. Only Man U, Chelsea and Fulham can beat that. So there’s another biggie. Whoop-de-shaggin’- do!
Of the £150 million we owe, £140 million of that is to Ashley and said to be interest free. He pumped the money in to pay off the debts and minimize the interest payments, which now stand at only £2 million. I say “only” because Man U, with four times our debts, are paying 50 times our interest.
This wasn’t intended as a “Wow, isn’t that Mike Ashley a nice guy” kind of rant so we’ll keep that to a bare minimum, but lets not lose track of the fact that last year we had the 4th highest wage bill and the 4th highest debt, all being serviced from the 4th lowest turnover.
Not quite the kind of “big” I was looking for.
For any of you who are interested, search for “Guardian – Inside sport special report Premier League Finances”. It makes good reading.
If that type of thing doesn’t interest you, try “Inside the Dog”. Its crap, but I don’t see why I should be the only one who wasted money on it.
I’m sure you are all going to hit me with why we are a big club (or more likely, why we “were” a big club), but many of us can remember not that long ago when Leeds were the possibly biggest in the country.
Personally I think we are a big club. I just don’t know why.
Thanks to Archie Brand for submitting this.
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110 Comments
We are a big club in comparison to the other mid table battlers however the top 6 (possibly without spurs) will be bigger now. we don’t really have a great history which i think is what determines most big clubs and is the reason for the big fan bases. Regionally we are huge! Nationally reasonably big. Global probably average
lee ryder is saying obertan med has hit a snag
this is a joke
Nice one Archie! Sums up some of my confusion too. I don’t really know why we’re much “bigger” than, say, Bolton. But I know we are. I think it comes down to this: if you stop 100 random people in 100 countries around the world and ask them to name english footie clubs, a lot more will say Newcastle United than Bolton or Wigan or even Everton to be honest.
It may be history – all that silverware half a century ago – or perhaps the names like Shearer and Keegan that are associated with us, or great stories like KK’s promotion and oh-so-close title race. We’re a known brand, for whatever reason, and even the bad stuff like the current Joey saga all add to that.
false alarm someone was winding me up
its saying obertans on a 2day medical on ssn!!?? does that mean we wont be signing him until 2mora ?
Sorry you lost me when you actually wrote “not long ago Leeds were possibly the biggest in the country” I must have been asleep when that happened during the last 50 years.
Amazingly, out of nowhere, City and Etihad Airways have announced a sponsorship deal worth by 100 million pounds.
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Technically, sponsorship deals in excess of FMV from the owner’s other companies are a violation of the UEFA fair play rules. We’ll see if UEFA has the guts to enforce them.
We are a big club in terms of revenues- albeit one with a very high wage bill (though that is shrinking) and a very big debt. So, in reality, we are a relativley mid-sized club until the finances are sorted. simples
I looked at that Guardian article and there’s one very important bit of info that changes the article: those figures are a year behind, so that turnover is while we were in the CCC. So without all the extra income (just the TV is an extra £30m) we still had more income than three prem teams.
Now, we have a wage bill of around £50m – pretty much average – but income likely to be around the £90m mark, which puts us around 7th.
Size may not matter, but solvency does – and ours is actually quite impressive.
What teams like the scum and the bindippers are doing is completely unsustainable. Quite how they expect things to go I don’t know; it’s a fat lot of use qualifying for Europe if you then get kicked out for losing shedloads of cash.
If we keep on the way we’re going, we won’t even need to improve to move up; some teams will just fall past us on their way to Division One.
(Incidentally – scumberland, based on those figures, really are screwed)
Whumpie, totally agree with you. Spending big money will leave some clubs in trouble.
I bet you we are using the routledge money in order to buy obertan
Good article, but I think your snapshot of NUFC having the 4th largest wage bill versus Turnover is a bit misleading and inflated due to that scenario was after the year in the championship with no Premiership Prize Money. When the latest accounts are released and last seasons PM added then the turnover will increase by £60m whilst the wage bill has reduced considerably. Arguably we have only 3 high wage earners Smith, Barton and the club captain left @ the club!
Howdy, has anyone got the codes for the fantasy league, just got round to putting my team together. Ta.
Now, we have a wage bill of around £50m – pretty much average – but income likely to be around the £90m mark, which puts us around 7th
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Based on what I’ve seen reported that looks about right for this season. When the accounts from last year are realeased I think we will see somehting like a 60M/120M ratio when the Carrol sale is included., meaning the club likely would have still operated at a loss for the year if not for the Carroll sale.
I thought Prdew’s comments from the other day were rather telling in that he seemed to suggest that only annual profits would be reinvested. That jives with Llambiase’s comments form last year. That would also mean “the money will stay in the club” comment is true, but also explain why we aren’t spending the 35M.
Actually, the more I look at these figures the more I like them. I can’t be arsed to do the maths, but won’t we have the best ratio of wages to turnover? And while you have to admire the revenues of Manure and co, who the hell would want those debts at about 7%? Imagine knowing that much of the price of your prawn sandwich was going towards interest payments.
Obertan currently undergoing medical at private, city centre hospital in Newcastle- Chris Conway on twitter
Brian Clough wrote: “I was watched by 30,000 people at notts county but i couldnt get that ammount to watch forest in a european cup semi final, Never what you would call a big club…”
Many including myself would call forest a big club, It all a matter of opinion, I would call us and the majority of the top flight, At least 50% of the championship and some of the division 3 clubs big clubs but im sure plenty wouldnt.
One thing I would hope that most rival fans would agree is that think we are an authentic football club instead of these chessy clubs playing shit music when they score, I had to chuckle last week watching hull playing ready to go and cant help falling in love very cheap and placca reminds me of some other club
I think playing going home (local hero) and blaydon races resonate with the area and give us some genuine class…
The deloitte report stated that the average wages/revenue ratio for Prem clubs in 08-09 was 67%, and likely to be higher in 09-10. We seem to be doing a bit better than that now.
If Ashley fails to get in decent players to fill the gaping holes in our squad with players of sufficient caliber at least we will be able to console ourselves with our knowledge of our excellent wages to turnover margin when we are languishing in the lower half of the table.
Have a look at the Premier League and pick out teams you think are Bigger than NUFC.
I think maybe Four possibly Six.
This had to happen, and it’s bloody funny:
http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/sport/sport-headlines/clubs-line-up-to-tell-barton-to-do-one-201108044156/
I know I ranted a bit yesterday, but really: try living anywhere else but Newcastle and see how utterly stupid our fans look when they get offended at managers for rejecting Barton.
Satire is still the best barometer of public opinion, and this is genuinely how the world sees wor Joey. Doesn’t mean we have to like him less, but it does mean we should shut the feck up trying to justify his behaviour, because it just makes the club even more of a laughing stock.
Soap box back under table. Honest. Oh, and do read the link; tis funny.
I can’t really remember there being so many accountants about before the Fatman took over. It’s all well and good being on a sound financial footing but will the fans be happy to be mid table team aslong as we are sound financially ? I dont know why so many fans are worried about the Fatman’s money.
When he came in we were promised that he would be investing so many millions of his own money every yr, if he doesn’t want to do stick to backing the club as he said he would be better off getting out asap.
As for being a big Club imo it’s determined by size of the Club and the regular support it gets ?
hearing stuff simpson wants another club and wont sign a new contract! is it cos young tavernier is gona knock him off his perch?.or does he want more dosh?
Am off to gym, looking forward to Arsenal sat, ill be playing u’ll be writing #livingthedream
This maybe a hint unless hes joinig arsenal
, Also well done to joey for nailing pleat, What a hypocritical prick, Like he’s in a position to judge dorty fecker…
John could it not be that he is pissed of with the boards lies and the way the club is being run ? Just a thought
I can’t really remember there being so many accountants about before the Fatman took over. It’s all well and good being on a sound financial footing but will the fans be happy to be mid table team aslong as we are sound financially ?
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Probably not.
Ashley has made clear that he is done subsidizing the club after pumping in the 150M or whatever it was. Therefore, we should care about the financials since investment will only come form profits.
I’m not saying I agree with it but the club has made it clear that that is the way it is going ot be.
People who don’t care about the financial situation and expect Ashley to just pump in 20-30m a year are living in a dream world and ignoring the club’s statements to the contrary.
Simple: better financials= more investment and/or possible sale of the club.
It’s also heartening to know that Ashley could stick up to another £10m on the wage bill by getting in, let’s say, 4 players on anything upto £50k a week, and our wages to turnover would still look pretty good.
Also when some of our dead wood players leave in the next year or so (assuming we can’t sell them first) that would offset some of the extra money spent on getting the four new players in.
john says:
August 8, 2011 at 15:21
hearing stuff simpson wants another club and wont sign a new contract! is it cos young tavernier is gona knock him off his perch?.or does he want more dosh?
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Saw that reported as well. What leverage does he have? I tend to rate him more than most but how many upper half clubs would come in for him and pay a decent wage?
Big Dave… I kind of get what you’re saying, and I know your view is the same as many, but I don’t know how many more ways people can put it to you:
1. Ashley’s put in his £100-odd million to keep us afloat, but that’s it – he’s not doing it any more, as he made clear was the plan 3 years ago. There is no more “the Fatman’s money”. It’s the club’s money, which is our money. They don’t get it from anyone else; just the fans – directly or otherwise. The club will have about £100m a year to spend, and it doesn’t matter what it’s spent on – it all comes from one source: us.
2. Clubs are not going to be allowed to follow the Chelski model any more. All clubs will have to do what we’re doing; we’re just ahead of the game. Now it’s all about increasing revenue and nobody can buy their way up a-la-Citeh. Good thing, surely?
3. There is no evidence that Ashley or anyone else is settling for mid-table long-term. It makes no sense. What they’re doing is building slowly in a sustainable way. Whatever you think of them, their actions generally match their words. Yes, they cock things up monumentally, but the overall direction is exactly what they’ve said all along.
That’s the strategy; has been for a couple of years; will be for a long while yet. It’s not been fudged or unclear; it’s just been unpopular with those who thought Ashley would be our version of that murderous crook Abramovic. He’s not, and that’s not going to change. The answer isn’t to find someone who is, it’s to get on board and support the team while the strategy works and stop moaning because things aren’t how you wanted them.
Surely if we play exciting football and finish 9th this season you’ll be happy? And 7th next season? Perhaps 5th the year after?
Incidentally, I think Barton has exactly the same viewpoint as Big Dave and many others. I’m not saying it’s a stupid viewpoint; I just think people should get over it and start looking at the positives like many do.
Look at Pootle’s post @26 – perfect example.
If anything this really enforces the fact that Ashley couldn’t give a stuff about the football as long as the club stays up and he can keep wages as low as possible to do so.
According to the estimates you have seemed to agree on we could easily afford a decent striker, a decent winger, a decent left back and other defensive cover. Much of the wages would be offset once Barton and Enrique leave. If we shift Xisco and Smith too then the wages should be back to where they are now anyway.
We could be seriously challenging for 6th spot by next season with appropriate investment.
It all makes the excuses against getting in decent players at reasonable cost seem even weaker than they already did.
Pootle (way to wreck my point by the way!) –
Do you honestly think money is what’s lacking in our hunt for players? Really??
You don’t think it’s the constraints of finding players of the right age, ability, personality, availability and interest in our club despite the public rantings of Joey and famous cockups of the owners?
I honestly believe that if there’s a striker out there for £15m that fits the bill, the dosh will be forthcoming. Can anyone give any evidence that suggests otherwise?
@30- I think that is very likely the plan, but ashley seems to want those players out first and then buy, rather than buy first with the possibility of not being able to move them. Enrique seems to be the only player you list that other clubs may want, and we still haven’t recieved a bid for him.
Simpson will go nowhere he has just had a child and will not want to move etc; just not practical.
Also think that the paluchencko rumour doesnt have any legs we need a pacy tricky striker
Re article completely agree; we are a huge club; but still huge gap between us and top four
I honestly believe that if there’s a striker out there for £15m that fits the bill, the dosh will be forthcoming.
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I’m not sure if they would pay 15M, but I think they clearly would make some money available for the right striker. The obviously tried with Gameiro, Gervinho, and Erdinc, all valued between 7-10M.
A big club? No. A club with a good history and great fanbase? yes.
MDS when he crabbed control of the club he must have known that the chances of the club to make money was small hence why he said he would put in his own money, which to me makes it clear he knew that it wouldn’t be making money, so as I said if he doesn’t want to stick he should get out. The problem with the clubs statments is that they kept bringing new one’s out.
So how can you trust them when they keep changing their minds. I do believe that through his ownership of the Toon he has made money only that is through his real love Sports Direct
We will go nowhere under Ashley. If your estimates are even reasonably accurate, we can easily afford to get in the players we desperately need to actually be a competetive team. We can do it without getting in to more debt or becoming a financial liability too.
In fact, over the next year or so we will be able to offset an extra £10m through players leaving and contracts expiring.
Face facts, Ashley could easily invest enough money to make us a decent competitive side without jeopardising our financials. YOUR OWN ESTIMATES DEMONSTRATE THAT.
We will never amount to anything other than a struggling cash cow under him.
“But he isn’t making money – we aren’t a cash cow – he’s getting back his debt!”, come the shrill, desperate cries.
He will only be paying back the debt for a few more years at the rate he is reducing our wage bill. Then he will be making a very, very healthy profit, providing he can keep us up by the skin of our teeth.
If he can make a profit with the absolute minimal outlay what makes you think he will EVER invest in the football side of the club?
MDS when he crabbed control of the club he must have known that the chances of the club to make money was small hence why he said he would put in his own money,
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Agreed- that’s why the whole “ashley is just here to make money” argument never made sense to me. I just don’t think he expected to have to kick in as much as he did. In is first year at the club, he spent 20-22M on Jonas, Collo, and Xisco, paid Allardyce a tidy sum to f-off, and paid keegan a nice salary. Then they found out about still owing money on past transfers, already spent future sponship monies, then relgation, etc. When he tried to sell, no one wanted the club due the finanical situation. So clearly that needs sorted.
Pictures of Obertan at Newcastle training ground on sky sports news
BD – I think you give Ashley too much credit! He just screwed it up; got all cocky with his dosh, didn’t do due diligence and got caught. I think he said as much a year later.
Not sure whether he’s just steering it towards a sale or not. Probably, but as you say, he’s not exactly immune from changing his mind, so if things go well and he gets more popular, perhaps he’ll want to stick around.
Sorry. Didn’t mean to depress people.
I think there is a plan, and we will become a going concern but it will take time before we are generating enough income to become competitive.
We could do with Ashley telling us what it is so we can play the game too, but what are the chances of that?
Sir,
A good article and quite thought-provoking. I read the Guardian article and it was scary in parts but I was reassured that based on increased PL revenues, our club should have returned a profit last year, albeit small.
The sad truth is that we are not a big club by any definition other than crowd size (numbers and average girth) and opinion of the average supporter. Our domestic success is remembered by people who are now approaching retirement. Now that we are not paying players huge salaries, there is no queue of players beating a path to NE1. We are not the richest club by a considerable margin, with our fortunes depending on chavs buying cheap sportswear rather than selling fossilised microbes.
I appreciate and even agree with the ’100 random foreigners’ method but this too does not constitute big, and certainly not in the eyes of players.
I fear the sad truth is that we simply have delusions of grandeur and rather like the mythical Hyacinth Bucket are pilloried and pitied in equal measure by those around us.
MDS @38 – I think that was the point where he issued the only apology of his life and took the reigns himself. Since then I think he’s been pretty consistent… including with the cock-ups. But I can’t help but be very glad he didn’t just cut his losses and run at that point.
Right now we’re 2 players away from a decent (i.e. top half) squad and making a profit. To get to that point in just 3 years from the tail-spin we were in is pretty impressive in my book.
Doesn’t mean I like the guy, and I hate Llamearse, but at least recognise the transformation we’ve seen.
My take is that ashley royally screwewd up buying us. clearly he didn’t know what he was doing or what he got himself in for. I bet if he could do it over agin, he would have passed. But now he is stuck with us as he tried to sell and couldn’t get his money back. So we are stuck with him. The soone rthe finaces are sorted, the sooner we can press on as a club, or be rid of Ashley. either way, it is a positive outcome. The big negative, which frustrates me as well, is that we willlikely have to be mediocre in the short term unless some of these new buys and youngsters all turn out as good as Tiote and Ben Arfa. .
John – a bit eloquent, old chap!
I actually agree, but I can honestly see us progressing while others fall flat on their faces. For a start, do the likes of Chelski and Citeh have the first clue how to do what we’re doing? What exactly are they going to do when they’re disqualified from European competition for making £100m losses each year?
Sink without trace, hopefully.
It depends on how you assess BIG.
If you are a company, it’s easy: It’s what you earn (turnover). In that case if you look over the past five years or so we tend to be between 5th and 7th. I haven’t counted the year in the Championship. So on that evidence we should be in the top seven clubs. Obviously, you could factor in other things, but lets keep it simple.
You could look at attendances, and if we do that then we are 3rd just about every year.
If we look at history, then we have a reasonable amount of silverware, unfortunately it’s almost ancient history.
Attractiveness to top players. This is rather transient in nature as we are more attractive when we are doing well, but we will never be as attractive as a team in London which is also doing well.
Ambition. Ah well, this where we fall well short. Unless something changes on this front we will always be minnows despite the attendances, etc.
All in all Newcastle can be what it wants to be. It can act like a big club and be a big club quite easily, however, it can also act like a small club and always be amongst the minnows. It is up to the management.
Didn’t Simpson just sign a new 5 yr deal recently?
They will pay nothing like the required amounts to get decent established players. Where is your recent evidence that they will?
You say there is no evidence they won’t invest ‘in the future’.
Barring time travel I don’t know what I can do about that.
What I do know is your own estimates show that he could invest up to another £10m on wages and still have the club on a sound financial footing.
Thats five players on £40k a week, or four players on upto £50k a week. Or 3 on £60k. We should easily be able to get players in for those sums.
Even if we can’t sell them now there are several players whose contracts will expire in the near future which would completely offset that £10m anyway.
Again, your own figures suggest we can afford it anyway even if the money isn’t offset by selling players immediately.
If Ashley can afford to improve the squad with the 3-5 quality players we desperately need, as your figures clearly demonstrate he can, but chooses not to what makes you think he ever will?
It’s all about fulfilling potential.
We don’t. Any where near.
People go on about Ashley as if he saved us and did us a huge favour…he is in it for one reason only….sorry to disappoint but it’s not us and the club
Shanghai- they offered him one but supposedly hasn’t signed it, hence the speculation regaridng his future.
pootle- what do you mena by established players though? Give me Tiotes, Cabayes, and Ben Arfas over a Wayne Bridge/Stephen Ireland type any day.
I agree with you that they could afford 3 new players under the current structure. I believe the money is there and I’ve been calling for a striker, full back and winger. Looks like we got the winger (though I’d prefer Barnetta) so now a Stiker and fullback and I like the squad.
F**K FIGURES AND FCK WAGE TO PROFIT RATIOS MULTIPLIED BY DEBT OVER THE SQUARE ROOT OF 17. I DONT GIVE A FLYING F**K!
you think man utd fans give a shii about being %10000 percent in debt when they lifted leaggue title last year??
I just wanna see a decent team play some decent football and make me happy every other saturday – IS THAT SO FOOKING MUCH TO ASK??!
Our dad told me stories about old greats. I watched living greats like cole and sir les and shearer, and a great manager in Sir Bobby
NOT ONCE DID WE TALK ABOUT FOOKING FINANCES
sick of it
AND YES – WE ARE A BIG CLUB
Simmo at the moment is average at best and still has 2 years left on his current contract which is the same as Capt Colo!! so why worry about Simmo?
Fair enough- but not sure if ignoring reality and living in the past are the way forward.
@51 quality
‘Looking at the last available figures our turnover puts us in 17th place above only Blackpool, Wigan and West Brom. So we’re hardly very big in that department either, are we?’
Come on mate! This pertains to our season in the Championship and therefore reflects the turnover of a Championship club. It’s actually a decent financial achievement… notice we turned over more dosh than 2 Prem clubs that year?
We are certainly in the top half of the Prem when it comes to turnover AND the wealth of our owner. Defo.
According to Deloitte and Touche’s annual surveys, throughout the last decade, we were regularly placed in the top 20 richest European clubs based purely on turnover/revenue (no reference to debts). The last time being 2009 i believe.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deloitte_Football_Money_League
@51
A man after my own heart
” I honestly believe that if there’s a striker out there for £15m that fits the bill, the dosh will be forthcoming. Can anyone give any evidence that suggests otherwise?”
If you give me evidence that suggests we will, I’ll give you the evidence that suggests we won’t.
You do realise the ‘show me the evidence’ argument works both ways?
Why have the deals with Gameiro, Gervinho and Erdinc failed?
Admittedly we can’t even be sure that bids were ever actually made.
What’s stopping us going out and getting someone, are we waiting until the last minute and we’re desperate so the selling club can push the price right up (like Carroll), surely not?
No doubt we’re just struggling cos we can’t find anyone with the right ‘personality’.
Lol. Of all the shite excuses that one is one of my favourites!
It seems ironic when we have a pair of people shown in court to be dishonest liars refusing to buy players based on accusing said players of having a suspect personality.
Well, just read Toonsy’s expecting.
I got the same news this week. Girlsfriend is pregnent. Will be my first and he’s definately going to play for the Toon, because he’s not even born yet and he’s already dribbled past a goalkeeper with a 99% shot stopping percentage.
I agree, the debt our club has is fairly average for a “business” with our asset values with regard to both players and infrustructure.
We have a contant source of income, which means banks will allow us to pay debts over many years.
And yes, Ashley has done a decent job of controlling it. But he also did a magnificent job of cocking it up by contributing to our relegation after making a series of shocking decisions.
So, no we don’t owe him anything. And if anything, he should have learned that you need to invest properly to succeed.
We have done alright. But with a bit of proper investment we could be a top 6/7 club this season. But he just won’t do it…
Chasing turnover and being busy fools, spending more than you earn and ignoring bottom line profit is the reason why companies fail Cash Is King no matter how big the turnover or you will go bust and overtrade,
POOTLE—I said two days ago that you are commercially naive, your posts today have reinforced my opinion.
Looking at the squad it is clear to everyone that included in our 25 declared squad we need in order of priority.
1) Quality Striker—-I`d settle for Shane Long at the mo!
2) Even if Jose by some miracle stays, we need a back up–This Dutch international we are linked with?
3) ideally a centre back for cover?–Scott Dann anyone??
The problem we have is no club is actually looking to sign our dross because of huge salaries that they are earning which means being patient until their contracts run down and freeing up the cash—Not exactly a queue for Barton is there??
” Looks like we got the winger (though I’d prefer Barnetta)”
We, you ask me what I mean by established players, then said that?
Barnetta is an established international. Could probably be had for around £7m and £35-45k a year. By the figures provided we can easily afford him.
Who do we go for?
Obertan. Languishing in Man U reserves for years. Cost pretty much what we got for Routledge. Almost certainly half the wages of Barnetta.
Said to be skillful but have problems with confidence and handling pressure (he won’t get pressure from playing in front of 52000 then?)
Has had problems with stepping up even when he played in France, as his coach Laurent Blanc noted when he transferred to Man U.
Pretty much sums up Ashley’s ’5 year plan’ to me. Aim low and hope fotr the best.
Jut seen SSN say about a two day medical for obertan? Why? Is it because we have found a player without previous injury concerns so have to drill down and find one?
im just fed up though guys. remember those champ league nights?
tino against barca?
shearer at inter milan?
remeber bellamy with that goal in eindhoven to get us into 2nd round?
ya i understand we wont get back there, but why not try. why settle? this is NUFC. Over 100, 000 fans in this country alone. The potential is there. Im fed up with all these summer school students who all now have degrees in accounting from the Mike Ashley business school..
DO ONE!
ya’all royally do my head in..
CT- over several posts I’ve come to the conclusion you are gullible and really, really don’t know what you are talking about. Fortunately your assumption that I am commercially naive only backs that up.
Right back at ya.
Pootle
What concerns me more with Obertan, is Pardew says he adds pace?!
He certainly has technical ability and dribbling skills but I’ve seen a distinct lack of pace for a winger. He is quite slow!
JJ, where have you been the last 4xyears, we owe to a secured creditor £150 mill(ish)– Did you have the bank of Toyland in mind?–Banks aren`t lending, certainly not to companies like NUFC whose gearing is skyhigh!
@pootie
You’ve just described Routledge in your assessment of obertan.
Loses his bottle in front of the big stage. Like for like ?
Never really seen obertan but there’s a reason for that. He never gets a game.
I was pleasantly surprised at how well we did last season and I’m hoping the same thing happens again, but to be honest, I’m underwhelmed by the transfer activity with the resources available.
The article was thought provoking but totally misleading. These figures are last years and playing in the ccc. It was fatty who dragged us down there let’s not forget.
CT, what is our stadium worth? Our playin staff? And the annual income. We surely have enough insurance there.
And banks will always lend (albeit a bit less now). Because even though times are tough. The economy will eventually bounce back.
Bobby not sure you can blame fatty for us going into CCC; the players and manager to blame im afraid players crap…….
What about these 2 players we are now being linked with? Erik Pieters, 23, LB and plays for the Dutch nationals, and Ola Toivonen, 25 striker, 34 goals in 75 games for PSV? Pardew was checking on Pieters over the weekend. Maybe these are real targets not just journo nonsense. Anyone seen either of them play? Pieters sounds very interesting but what would he cost (if a lot then we won’t bebuying him I would guess). Is it true Jose will be sold to Liverpool this week for 5.5 M (NUFC.com reporting that now)?
What they say toonsy? 2 day medical? any reasons why?
Liam
Which manager of the four would you blame???
Would we have gone down if we didn’t sell Given, Milner, and Zog and not replace them?
Think Ashley was 90% to blame there.
JJ
August 8, 2011 at 17:20
“CT, what is our stadium worth?”
Given the fact that we don’t actually own the land it’s built on, plus with the arse having fell out of commercial property, probably not as much as many people think.
This is why we don’t, and never have, had much secured on the ground as it can’t be used for anything else. It’s highly unlikely that should Newcastle be evicted from SJP that another team will just move in there.
The training ground and land within it is what is, and has previously been, used as collateral.
JJ – fair point but the players we had should have kept us in the division.
” Now, we have a wage bill of around £50m – pretty much average – but income likely to be around the £90m mark, which puts us around 7th.
Size may not matter, but solvency does – and ours is actually quite impressive.”
Of course any assumptions on being able to afford to get a few more players in even if we don’t shift Jose, Barton etc. until their contracts expire is based around the statements above being true (in the worst case – if the figures are better than that there’s even less argument against it)
If adding 3 players is affordable (according to the above estimates it shoukd be) we should do it sooner rather than later. That way this year could be the consolidation and formation of a new team spirit. The following season we might have a crack at a European spot as the team would have had a year to gel, and we would see the wages bill return to £50m as Barton and Enrique will definitely be gone, Smith and Xisco hopefully too.
I see Barton has been suitably poked and prodded and obliged to the media today by going off on one, calling them names, and even offering to meet one face to face to sort out differences
When will he learn?
On a sidenote, I’m off to London tonight. Should be fun
Agree with you JJ. I have watched Obertan and never thought of him as pacy. Looks more confident on the ball than Routledge though (almost anyone would fit that bill however). Definitely Obertan over Routledge and we all know Jonas’s problems with end product but we don’t really know how Marveaux’s end product will be either. Almost impossible to compare them as the team will have changed so much. I fear the squad is getting too young to cope with the long season, especially once we get into winter. We won’t have enough seasoned pros to cope with several losses in a row. We definitely must get a second striker in as we don’t have enough goals in this team.
@Liam
You don’t think fatty is to blame for relegation?
Was everyone not crying out for investment in the January window ? It was plain for everyone but Ashley and Lamearse to see we were in freefall.
He gambled on us finishing 4th bottom and he failed miserably.
He admitted himself he fell woefully short in his judgements.
Get real fella.
” Looks like we got the winger (though I’d prefer Barnetta)”
We, you ask me what I mean by established players, then said that?
———————
Pootle- please stop adding words to my comments that are not there- it’s tiresome after it happens the first dozen times. I did NOT list Obertan as an “established” player like I did the others. All I said was that we got a winger. If Obetan is not a winger, then the mistake is mine.
There is plenty of blamne to go round fo rrelegation. The players we had should have been enough really but didn’t seem like they could be bothered. But I blame Ashley for the unrest starting with the Keegen fiasco and the embarrassing manager carousel that followed.
Bobby i dont disagree; just cant forgive those players who took us down; no heart for the club
Pootle—the problem is you don`t understand commercialism, spend more than you earn = bust. It really is that simple, got nothing to do with turnover!!
I`ll try to explain it more slowly for you, NUFC owes ASHLEY £150 mill.
he is trying to get the club self funding, quite right too.as he is not going to prop it up forever–the trick is how far do you go to get everything under control without risking the clubs premiershhip survival which would be self defeating.
If you have a £100mill turnover and a trading margin of 20%, your bottom line Gross Profit is £20 mill, but if your outgoings are £30mill, You lose £10 mill and you go bust if no cash reserves or other types of funding.
This is where we are— if we can move on players we don`t want, Xisco`s/ Smiths etc then the whole dynamic changes!
i hate to say this…..big fans…..big heart….not a lot of dosh =not a big club=big players wont come here cos nufc wont meet the wages and conditions players want today simples………
sorry i forgot angents demands not players …lets remember that lads…
Somehow or the other every post seems to end up in a big disagreement.
I think we can all agree that we’re all very passionate about seeing our club do well, just that how we think that can best be achieved is very, very different indeed.
In other news, there’s an “unnamed french trialist” who played in the closed doors friendly tonight. Apparently he plays as a striker and replaced Nile Ranger on 45 mins. Seems like there may be a new striking addition after all, will be interesting to see how that pans out…
ffs……young players are offered more in the championship now on 3 year deals!!!!!!!
JJ, as Toonys stated we have no collateral left, don`t forget our cantilever stand extension cost £70 mill ffs, more than the Stad of shite/ and half of the smogside added together.
Ash`s company is a secured and preferential creditor, no bank will rank 2nd to that, simple.
Look, I wish it was different too but it isn`t, we need to be patient and lose some of the top earning trash we don`t want.
I`m just stating the facts!
Just did a bit of scouting around the forums, apparently the young french trialist is Yaya Sanogo, U21 striker from Auxerre. On the radar of Arsenal & Spurs couple of years back.
Here’s his wiki if anyone’s interested
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaya_Sanogo
@CT
I dont think you understand the situation.
According to Ashley we have a 5 yr plan.
He has earmarked £20m per season to invest in the team.
We sell Carroll and Nolan and now routers for in excess of £40m on fees and if you include wages a damn lot more.
We have so far bought Cabaye for £4.5m and Ba and Marveaux on frees but again if wages included a few more million.
Now we have obertan for £3m.
At what point did you lose the plot with figures?
You really are struggling fella. I would give up .
What even is a big club? Meh, we probably do count in terms of support, not so much in terms of trophies….I’d say, top 7?
@thad
You say ;
Somehow or the other every post seems to end up in a big disagreement.
So what? That’s what a blog is all about. Differing opinions will always happen.
Do you want us to agree with each other just to keep the peace?
@90. Boby, I think the 20M per year was after the club was solvent, was it not? I could be wrong about that though…
Agree totally about the top earning trash CT. Xisco, Smith will be gone as soon as it can be done. Smith is finished and knows it, just playing out his contract. Xisco laughing all the way to the bank like Luque before him. We can’t afford any more mistakes of that magnitude. Can’t argue with you too much about finances but are all the profits made from player sales in the last 3 years being taken into account? Also surely if you add 30M or so from the Carroll money to the club’s income this year Ashley will take in at least 120M pounds. This should be more than just a break even year with little spending as we have seen.
Bobby, Don`t lose sight £150mill debt needs to be repaid. Ash said £20 mill per year once club is solvent. Me struggle? Never
Thad
August 8, 2011 at 17:57
“Just did a bit of scouting around the forums, apparently the young french trialist is Yaya Sanogo”
That name rings a bell??? Weren’t we linked with him before?
Just Googled him and he turns out to be a beast on Football Manager by the looks of it
GeordieTwo
August 8, 2011 at 18:08
“Can’t argue with you too much about finances but are all the profits made from player sales in the last 3 years being taken into account?”
Despite player sales we’ve still made losses year on year, some of them substantial. Is there really any profit if the bottom line has a minus in front of it?
” Pootle- please stop adding words to my comments that are not there- it’s tiresome after it happens the first dozen times. I did NOT list Obertan as an “established” player like I did the others. All I said was that we got a winger. If Obetan is not a winger, then the mistake is mine.”
What on earth are you talking about?
Your words are a direct quote – note the quotation marks. The bit after is my comment on it.
You questioned what I meant by getting ‘established’ players – then provided a perfect example of what I meant.
I would prefer Barnetta over Obertan too. Why?
Because Barnetta is an established international, Obertan is a gamble.
So what is the answer CT? I think you are down playing the club’s income to make Ashley look better. Of course we know the club owes him 135M pounds but almost every club in England owes money. I agree Ashley has stabilized the finances which is a very good thing but the football side needs to be considered as well. Is Derek Llambias your idea of a good managing director or anyone else’s for that matter? Does football have equal importance with finance for Ashley? He will get every penny of his money back and more UNLESS he takes us down again. Then he deserves whatever loss he has to take. Pardew is in an impossible position. He has to please his master yet he has to answer to the supporters as well.
Toonsy there is no overall profit yet but I guess my point is that last season was the turn-around season. Deloitte’s report will tell us that when it comes out for the 2010 season. And this year Ashley will begin to make a good return (mostly by keeping most of the Carroll money). I stick with the estimate that for 2011-2012 Ashley will turn a sizeable profit which should then be used to pay down some of the club’s debt to him. Things will get even better for him in 2012-2013 because several more high earners will be off the books including Smith. Then the profits should get very juicy indeed. Newcastle will probably become the most profitable club in England within 3 years and the fat man will be rubbing his hands with glee (as long as we don’t go down of course). The plan is really quite clever and we should see some decent football but never really get close to winning anything.
I must have misread your commnet.
You said “We, you ask me what I mean by established players, then said that?” I took that to mean that I was calling obertan “established” which I was not. I’ve been calling for Barnetta for months.
@BSN9
Nah, I’ve been around long enough to know that everyone’s going to have an opinion, and things are going to get heated etc. Just saying, when I read the umpteenth comment thread that sounds like the same debate that we had yesterday, and the day before, and the day before, and pretty much the whole summer really, my brain tends to puke a little bit.
I’m entitled to that opinion aren’t I?
I reckon all Carr does is pull up the latest FM database, pull up everyone that has a high potential and then go watch them. If you actually load up last year’s DB, you will see that Cabaye’s contract does indeed have the 4.5m release clause in there. Gives weight to that theory
that last bit was meant for Toonsy re: Sanogo in FM.
Sanogo – best player on football manager in a few years
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7etxZv7Y7MI
CT the problem is you don’t seem to understand English. At no point in any post did I say the club should spend more than it earns.
That’s all in your fevered imagination.
Your arguments are stuffed full of logical fallacies and ad hominem attacks because they are fundamentally weak. I mean you invented a whole argument where I (in your imagination) said we should spend more than we earn.
Next year our wages bill will be much better. Barton, Smith, Shola, Xisco all on 50g or more.
I love how the first half or so was about the question in the title, then it suddenly turned into some sort of Ashley financial love in.
To say your financial logic is skewed is the understatement of the year (whichever year that may be). You’ve used figures from the Championship season as regards turnover and wages to turnover ratio, with a small disclaimer saying it would have improved in the Premiership.
Improved??
You are basically miles out, and it’s misleading. Our wages to turnover ratio is already supposedly less than 50%, which is very manageable. Once we lose more high earners it’ll be even lower and even more manageable.
We’ll easily have the 7th highest turnover, with only Liverpool and the other European placed teams as higher.
By the end of August we’ll have paid off £28million of debt to Ashley, and we’re still doing it in a manageable way. I don’t know where you get your debt figure from, but as far as I was aware we don’t owe any debt other than to Ashley.
From 2012 onwards we’ll have Smith off the books, and we’ll probably have Barton and Enrique off the books this season too. Our wages to turnover ratio could be as low as 35% in 2013 when Colo and Xisco depart.
We’re not in bad shape financially at all, and if we continue to make aprofit in every transfer window we’ll be stinking rich in 3 years time. Well, somebody will.
We are a mighty club – which doesn’t do enough about continuity on the pitch.
No, we are not with MA in charge.
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