Is Ryan the right wing solution?
Everyone has their own opinion or personal preference as to what they want from a winger, and all hold merit when other factors come into play such as defensive cover, but based on stats alone, who is the strongest performer this season? The four players taken into account are Ryan Taylor, Jonas Gutierrez, Gabriel Obertan and Hatem Ben Arfa.
It is difficult to base a decision on stats alone due to a number of factors including the fact Taylor played in defence for over half his appearances, Hatem Ben Arfa played in the hole behind a striker and has much less game time than the other three, and finally that Jonas and Obertan have been required to cover full backs more than attack in a lot of games this season.
All things considered, check out the stats anyway, see what you make of them.
So based on the above, decide for yourself. Personally I can see why Alan Pardew picks Jonas Gutierrez every week based on the need for defensive cover and think that it’s fairly obvious Ryan Taylor should play right wing if those are the tactics.
As I said in the article the other day though, long term, we need to get in a position where our wingers main priority is to attack and create chances for Demba Ba and especially Cissè rather than being required to protect our full backs constantly.
If we can get in that position by next season and don’t bring in any more wingers, my personal preference would be Ryan Taylor and Hatem Ben Arfa if we were to go standard 4-4-2.
In the ideal scenario I would probably even play Sylvain Marveaux above Taylor and let Ryan be our ultimate utility man, but although he looks a really clever player, the jury has to be out on Marveaux until he shows the fitness to warrant first team selection.
Who would you choose? Both for the remainder of this season, and next.
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From what I’ve seen this season I’d have to say Raylor…
Very impressed with Raylor this season…a very steady all round player, should be nominated for our player of the season but whether he wins is another matter
don’t know what to make of slyivain as we havnt seen much of him but I reckon he will only ever be back-up, don’t know if he’s the player to take us to Europe and succeed in it. hope i’m proved wrong and he’s great but he’s 25(i think) so isn’t that young, reckon we could sell either him or obertan to wenger as he loves turning fast frenchmen into AM or STs.
witters
i’d say taylor is most improved of the season but best player would go to either, Krul, cpt. Colo, or Ba. Though the prize is usually the kiss of death for our players, and are usually sold soon after.
Andymag…agree my point more around acknowledging Raylors contributions this season!
I think Krul is also in for most improved as well…no one expected him to be as good as he has been this season but has been that good he’s pushing for player of the season along with the others you mention
And apologies for any grammatical errors…that’s the second time attempt cos the first wouldn’t fucking post
Keith another good read Lad, though I would say that most fans tend to judge on goals and assists but I think that can give a false reading. Because we are talking about the right wing here Raylor has only been there a few times, Jonas has only been there a couple of times same as Benny.
Oba’s stats above cover him in his favoured RW position so he should do better there, Raylor has been everywhere as has Benny, Jonas has been in his un-natural postion LW
I Just know that I would prefer Raylor over Oba, but I still want to see Jonas get a run there, as I strongly feel that after what he has gave us he deserves a chance in his prefered RW.
Raylor for Me. Would love to see santon and raylor on the right together. Santon could bombard forward and overlap raylor who could stay back and cross from deep. Because raylor wont beat any fullback on speed and he has deadly crossing and with santon overlapping he will be able to draw away raylors marker.
Good article.
if we must play 4-4-2 then agree Jonas & Raylor are our 1st choice. However if they are the best we got then maybe we shouldn’t be playing 4-4-2
Premandup – would you not play 4-4-2 when we have demba and demba? Problem with 4-4-2 is ben arfa doesnt fit. Hmm could we be flexible enough to change formation and personel depending on the opposition?
With Cabaye & Tiote back in the line-up, AP could play HB-A and let him really disrupt Wolves. Ba & Cisse show they can track back, so that would be additional cover for the H Bomb. NUFC need some speed on the wings to get the ball out of the defensive end and Raylor does not offer what GO & H-bomb have. So I have to say NUFC should go with one of the “wild cards” on the right, since Raylor is just a less tricky wing than Jonas.
Just posted this on the last thread before realising this one had been published…
If I were manager I’d be looking to have a team like this come next season;
HOME:
GK – Krul
RB – Santon
CB – Saylor
CB – Colo
LB – Olsson (£3m)
MR – Redmond (£5m)
MC – Tiote
MC – Cabaye
ML – Hoilett (free)
ST – Cisse
ST – Ba
Subs; GK – Forster, DC/R/L – Yanga (£5m), DR – Clyne (free), MC – Guthrie, MR/L – Jonas, AMC/R/L – HBA, AMC/ST – Vuckic
Total spend: £13m
Sell: Best £3m
Release: Smith, Lovenkrands, Simmo (If he continues to play hard ball).
Net spend: £10m
Away from home I’d play 4-5-1, bringing in Guthrie for Cisse and Jonas for Redmond.
That’s just my personal opinion, though. Our squad depth would suddenly be very strong with the likes of Willo, Raylor, Abeid and Obertan etc not making my matchday squad.
What do you lot think?
It must be me!! Raylor has put in a good shift at times but I am not convinced that he deserves to start. No speed and slow on decision making and gets caught in possession. However he perhaps should be tried at right-back. Doesn’t seem most would agree with me.
This season I believe we’ve been 100% correct in deploying defence minded wide men. It’s been a huge factor in getting us to where we are.
However, should we qualify for Europe this season then I feel we must take the opportunity to add attack minded wide men to the squad and begin next season with an emphasis on playing attacking football. For me, this would take us to the next level.
Gary – looks great to me but when you add in agents fees, signing bonuses for free agents, wages etc its a big outlay, especially since i doubt you’d get Olsson for 3, or Redmond for 5 with all the hype and potential for brum to be promoted. What’s been coming out about M’bwia (sp?) performances in France make me doubt the 5m too and more interest in him now too. Maybe he could be one of those bargains we unearth though.
As much as I’d love to see what you say, I just can’t see that investment unless we get top four unfortunately, assuming we could attract hoilett etc. It’ll certainly help to rid ourselves of Smith’s wages and a few others. I’d say Xisco but that’s about as realistic as MA going on a 100m spending spree for the toon
Olsson is a good shout for me though, mind. Still young and time to improve even more. Do you think he and Santon would be solid enough to cope defensively if left exposed in a more attacking team. I’m happy with Santon esp since this is his first season in the Prem but he does have his moments at the back.
DUBTOON – The Olsson suggestion would probably depend on whether or not Blackburn are relegated. If they are, I believe he’d be available for around £3m. That’s just a prediction, though.
Even if we weren’t able to get him, Clyne could come in at RB with Santon switching.
You asked whether or not I believe they’d be strong enough defensively, I do. I believe the switch to attacking football would actually see them come under less of a threat in games. Clichy would be a good example of a player who counters defensive duties by putting an emphasis on attack.
Also, the Redmond deal would probably depend on Birmingham getting promoted. If they don’t, then I think they’d accept £5m because of their financial situation.
Remember, this is all just me making assumptions, though. I could be wrong about everything!
Not criticising, just playing devil’s advocate i guess. I think there’s too many teams interested in Redmond for that though regardless. Whether they sell or not probably hinges on promotion but even if they don’t get promoted, the competition between the big boys for him would drive the price to the 10m mark i’d guess. Just a guess from me too though
Good point about coming under less pressure, and there’s a bit of pace there to get back and cover counter attacks. I don’t know much about Yanga but it’d be very useful to have a CB with a bit more pace.
DUBTOON – I reckon Olsson has to be in the top five for pace in England, it’s his biggest attribute. Santon isn’t exactly slow either.
Besides, Tiote would offer fantastic cover even if one failed to get back in time.
For me hba has to start every game. He is out most skilful player and best creator arguably with the ball at this feet.
We should have a good enough full back to allow him to roam and create.
IMO we should play a front 6 of
Cabaye Guthrie tiote
Ba cisse hba
Wolves wouldn’t stand a chance
Sorry Gary – was agreeing with you about their pace, just got me thinking that some in the centre wouldn’t go awry.
LST – not sure about every game but i’d like to see what he can do with ba and Cisse. Seemed to have a good understanding with Ba in the limited time they’ve had together. Maybe Wolves is the chance to try him out and get Jonas to swap sides whenever appropriate to keep track of Jarvis?
For me without doubt HBA should start, I think if you look to his average performances in the games he starts, he deserves really a run of game in the starting XI, it is the only player who has not been given more than 3 games in a row in the starting XI, when you look to best, jonas , ameobi or Obertan performances, they almost all have 10 games in a row with some shitty performances.. Looking to his stats per minute played i think he is one of our best winger. He is our only player who is unpredictable with the ball in his feet. And I think Alan pardew and some of the fans just rely more in his reputation that is a selfish player who doesn’t track back and loose the ball too often, But if you look good he track backs, but I admits he is very weak in defense, and yes he looses some ball but when he looses the ball he takes risk. Just one game try to focus good on the number of ball lost by Jonas or even Obertan , but they loose the ball just missing control and missing a 5 meter pass.
But I m sure reading the last interview of AP, he will not start until the end of the season.
DUBTOON aye said that on last thread,benny mostly played with with best and shola,not a good advert for him sure to get more movement from ba and cissie one would think
I would start Raylor on the right and HBA on the left at home. They are our most creative players and I am sick to death Jonas’ wastefulness. I would like to see him offloaded in the summer.
- The Kid
Jonas has been incredibly frustrating to watch – this is a player Maradona rated so highly for his creativity? – but he is undoubtedly a fantastic defensive winger. He won’t be offloaded any time soon because of that quality.
I still endorse Liam’s team with a Cabaye, Guthrie, Tiote midfield three and HBA upfront with the Dembas. Hopefully that gets us a lead and we can bring on Jonas late to defend/get fouled.
Depends on the opposition, Ben Arfa if we can really attack, obertan if we might be chasing shadows.
No doubt for the Wolves game it has to be Arfa. Only because they are coming for a draw and will sit back. Arfa will run at them and yes he’ll frustrate but he will cause problems and occupy the defenders minds and that will allow the others with space.
It makes very little sense home or away not to fit HBA up front. What’s the point in having such a talent and twanging him in and out of the team because he’s not truing into a different kind of player? Not being able to make room for that kind of player is indicative of the paucity of our defensive capabilities, or at best the tactical ability to make up for them. Every decent forward positioned player is one who loses or gets caught on the ball with regularity as an inevitable risk of his game – that’s why the word ‘defensive’ is associated with players in every other position except the central front men. We aren’t playing HBA because there is a lack i the essential covering departments and it needs to be seen to.
Perhaps with Tiote and Cabaye back we now have enough to allow Benny to play in attack without having to be charged with defending?
I hope so because I may need a pacemaker fitted if we’re going to get rammed by 5 goals every couple of weeks.
id rather take advice from the coachs hba aint in the team for a good reason,what makes peeps think he has a god given right to start
I want to see Ben Arfa playing. Left right it doesn’t really matter just play him
I wouldn’t play Benny. Especially in a 4-3-3. Why is it people think Cisse would automatically slot into a wide role? Because he put 3 or 4 good crosses into the box against spurs?
TAE i agree a little with what your saying they see him everyday,but in the same token the lad has talent so surely its up to the coaching staff to harness that in a way to benefit everyone,cannot lose what he could give to team
ICEDOG il admit the boys got talent,just dont think he has a god given right to start,if hes in the team thats cool with me,if he aint in the team thats also cool with me,we just got to trust the people who work with the lad every day.
Off topic – I see we have been linked with a 26yr old Cameroon CB from Lille called Chedjou – wonder if that’s a Cabaye recommendation?!
gary- I would think in a 4-3-3- Ba and Benny would flank Cisse. Still, I’d prefer a 4-3-1-2 with Benny supporting Ba and Cisse but I’m not sure we have the FBs for either formation (Santon still learning and Simpson not up to it).
Toosny @ 28. I think you may be right. Maybe that’s why we haven’t seen much of Benny since those 2 went missing.
MDS i hope simpson doesnt sign a new contract,theres better out there imo and think he will find the grass isnt always greener elsewhere
R.Taylor V Ben Arfa on paper is no contest who is the better player Ben Afra is miles better.
That said however the tactics that Pardew deploys favours Taylor more. And here in lies the problem we play a cautious almost defensive tactic, where by when fully fit the defence & the midfield sit very deep making it very difficult for the opposition and our aim is hit them on the counter.
In recent matches teams have become wise to our style of play and play with a high tempo against us which causes problems defensively. The problem we have then is that we don’t seem to have a Plan B.
With Tiote and Cabaye Benny can run riot
TAE its not hard to work out why Benny is not in the team, The team wasn’t strong enough, and the fact Benny isn’t known for his tackling abilities makes it worse.
The lad is capable of winning us a game now that its strong enough to allow him to do his stuff, and you don’t want him playing
Dog I have to agree. I mean fair play to the lad he’s put in his fair share of good shifts, but I think we need to keep upgrading if we have any ambition and that would be position number 1 for me.
BIG DAVE i surgest you read 34
MDS – agree with that lineup idea, but our FB’s have to learn to stay put and not getting stranded in front of the guy they are supposed to be backing up. It’s all very nice and lovely and all that but you cannot cross or feed a decent play into the area so stop going FORWARD!
I have been thinking about the mackem game and how to line up if Cisse is missing and this is what I came up with, see what you think:
Krul
Simmo/Willo/Colo/Santoon
Oba/Tiote/Jonas
Cabaye/Benny
Ba
Id tell Tiote to stick on Sesspit to stop him playing. Oba can provide cover for Simmo against UnClean and Jonas can cover Santoon and of course the 3 of those in front of our back 4 should provide great cover.
Cabaye and Benny would be good support for Ba and should be able create chances. I also allows The wide players to get forward when we have the ball whether that be the full backs or Jonas & Oba.
Thoughts welcome….
TAE who says he has a god given right ? its not the 1st time you said Benny shouldn’t start, im just giving my opinion on why he is not starting lately.
Did you ever get around to thinking of who all the talented younguns that you said Manure couldn’t hold on too
BIG DAVE
so what about the kid west ham signed the best talent to come out of there youth ranks acording to most you miss him did ya mate
TAE you mean the trouble making one that was making huge demands from a man that doesn’t bow down to player demands Ravel, what about him ?
SHARPY17
February 22, 2012 at 21:57
I have been thinking about the mackem game and how to line up if Cisse is missing and this is what I came up with, see what you think:
Krul
Simmo/Willo/Colo/Santoon
Oba/Tiote/Jonas
Cabaye/Benny
Ba
obertan behind cabaye?? its also gna be a hard fighting game and obertan shys off at tackles!!
i would play this if we didnt hav cisse against the scum
—————————–krul————————————
simp—————-colo——wilo——————–santon
———————–guthrie–tiote——————————-
————benny——–cabaye———-jonas—————-
——————————-ba————————————-
Nah – especially against the grimy hordes the back line must be resolute. MoN has cemented a rigorous repel all invaders and mug on the break policy which will lead to 50k+ supporters simultaneously groaning at 90+2 mins when their useless sub walks round Krul to score the solitary winner. I fear we must adopt a similar attitude in our team which will not please the masses looking for an end-to-end thriller. Only we wouldn’t have a useless sub, we would have Cab/HBA/Ba as you say.
could not hold on to him could they lmao
BIG DAVE
as you will see this summer he aint the only hotshot kid they ganna lose
TAE telling him to find himself a new club because they wouldn’t be held to ransom by a trouble making reserve player, means they couldn’t hold on to him ???? are you for real, and so is that the only youngun you were talking about when you said Manure were on the slide because they can’t even hold on to their talented younguns ???
TAE @ 51 did a source tell you that or are you just guessing
Army – aye that was the only one I was two minds with … I went with Oba for his pace but maybe Raylor instead of Oba???
BIG DAVE
do he stay or did he go,you not real if you cant see they got probs there.The best talent to come from there youth system in years, sort of says it all dont it mate
has to be Ryan Taylor over the Wall, surely?
TAE if your trying to say that they couldn’t hold on to him and can’t see that they told him to find a new club then thats your problem
DAVE re benny,imo hes a real buzz about him since the days of being the entertainers we have gone backwards we could compete with the likes of m/u ect then we all know the reasons why we fell away while m/u ect have not i think we were lucky to get the lad at the time no one thought we would get him,now a lot of fans dont want him playing imo we must at least
try to fit him in maybe he would be better moveing on to a team that will fit him in,what a loss to the toon that would be
Tsunki
Perfectly summed up. I have watched Sunderland and they are incredibly negative. They play with everyone behind the ball, including Sessegnan, and then look to nick a goal on the break. It’s why I will never rate MoN.
Ice I often find it strange when people are saying that he has to work more and do more defending, but most of the same people would put Ginola or Robert into there all time fav teams, and I can’t remember seeing them 2 defending.
IMO the simple fact he has not been playing is because the team was not strong enough.
DAVE that is my thought to a tee mate
I’m with Big Dave on this.
Ben Arfa needs a strong side around him to make up for what he doesn’t provide i.e. security. He takes risks.
Ditto, but perhaps we underestimate Pardew in that he may be all too aware of the current squads’ limitations, and perhaps it’s a little bit of applied wisdom to keep him on the comeback trail until some more pieces fall in place, namely the LB/RB thing and the CB shortage.
BIG DAVE
if you cant read between the lines thats your prob not mine lmao
evening lads.. only getting a chance to get on now, cheers for the comments as always.
I see it has turned into a Benny debate again ha.. love or hate him, says a lot that he is a constant point of debate. Who’s the last player on the fringes that there was such a call for to play? Struggling to think of even one in my lifetime.
Anyway, re: the article and this season, think Raylor and Jonas are the best options given our tactics. I think if we played a more attacking style it’s a no-brainer that Benny would start.
That said, I do think it’s a bit unfair on the lad to not give him the run of games that Obertan has had for example. Has he even played a full 90mins in the league?
Next season, ideal scenario would be to play him in behind Ba and Cisse with a strong midfield three and two strong full backs, imo. Trouble with that formation is your full backs have to be extremely good or your midfield three have to be able to keep the ball against most teams. Our strongest first eleven could arguably do that but it’s a squad game and in that regard we’re miles off playing that formation week in week out.
Btw, just on TAE & Dave’s Man Utd debate.. Agree with Dave on Ravel.. SAF had his fill and wanted rid.. TAE, who are the young talents you expect to leave Man Utd this summer? and why?
TAE Manure couldn’t hold on to Ravel Morrison
dead on whatever you say
I’d like to see what we can do when going all out offensively:
Ba-Cisse
Ben Arfa
Jonas-Tiote-Cabaye
Santon-Collo-Willo-Raylor
We’d play them off the pitch
MDS our 3 man mid field would be stretched forward, sussed and bypassed I fear. Either Ba or Cisse up front with HBA, Raylor pushed up RM and Simmo pegged back RB? I say this because we shouldn’t expect too much too soon with Cisse, and he will have been away midweek. Perfect final 20 min man I feel in this scenario.
My opinion is:
Keep Jonas, Sylvian, Raylor.
Offload Benny for good money, and Orbetan.
Bring in free transfers and cheap ones like the Benny deal and invest in defence:-)
Our defence is The main problem, please focus on that Pardew:-)
Gary i think I’d like to see us try 4-3-3 and I don’t know how good Cisse would be wide but he looks full of running and if he managed four good crosses in one match that’s more than our wingers usually do when we’ve played 4-4-2.
———-Krul
Raylor–Colo–Willo—Santon
–Cabaye–Guthrie–Tiote—
–BenArfa—Cisse—Ba——-
Or something similar would do for me.
I would expect the front 3 to be fluent and swapping positions regularly anyway as I think given their respective qualities it could wreak havoc on opposition defences.
If we can’t make it work so be it, but I do think it would be worth try.
Considering Raylor has played the majority of games at left back is going to push up his defensive stats, as well as the fact that he takes set pieces.
Having said that, I think he is a decent right wing. Would rather see him at right back though.
Don’t know why we havnt tried Benny on the left wing and shifted Jonas to.the right.
Then try Raylor right back.
It’s a far more balanced and attacking.
There is no need for defensive wingers playing Wolves at home.
Having Jonas on the right will also nullify the Jarvis threat.
JJ – I know, i know. Although 4-3-3 may be ok for Wolves but I would have to watch through my fingers or get someone else to tell me what’s happening at the hosting of the unwashed.
Tsunki- maybe you are right, but there are problems with any formation. I just think it’s time to find a way to put our best players on the pitch and see what they can do as a unit
I still dont understand what Benny has done so far to be consider as one of our best players – or why we would change our whole style of play just to fit him in. If, when he had played, he had been shit hot – then I could understand it
I reckon we should see how the next couple of games go then assess the formation then with Cisse, cabaye and Tiote all available. If we don’t look like making a challenge on Europe, experiment some attacking formations then. Shame Marveux is crocked
At the end of the day lads, we are in te position we are I’m trough a rigid formation of largely the same faces. It’s worked.
JJ the fact Raylor has taken the majority of our attacking free kicks must improve his shots/passes stats, but I bet they dont count blasting them over the bar or into the wall as giving away possession??
Ahhhhh just before i turn in i just had a brain wave that has put my mind at ease about the derby.
(might have already been mentioned today)
Would we even start Papiss against the mackems?
How can we when we still have mackem slayer Mr SHOLA AMEOBI
Seriously though, could be his last ever derby for us, next season he’ll be relegated to possibly 5th striker, i’d back him over Best to bang in a few against them.
statto/toonsy/anyone else.
Just found this, seems to use historic data, probability analysis etc to project tables; show the importance of different games (eg can use to see what result we should want in a given match that’d be the best for our expected league position (average seed filter seems most relevant)). Clearly designed for American sports but some interesting information.
http://www.sportsclubstats.com/England/PremierLeague.html
I would like to see a measured gameplan to suit to opponents for that day. If Wolves come to put 10 or 11 behind the ball, play Ben Arfa. If we need more deliveries into the box play Raylor. If a team has a slower defense/ are leaving gaps at the back like Blackburn, put Obertan on to counter attack. The options we have for the right wing at the moment couldn’t be more different, it depends what we need, flair, delivery or pace.
forster
willo
taylor taylor colo santon
tiote
cabaye hba
cisse ba
easily best team
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