Shake it up Platini
As we know Newcastle and Liverpool had already qualified for next seasons Europa League but are now joined by ‘arrys ‘appy Spurs. What a shame eh?! Couldn’t happen to a nicer bloke and team could it?!
In reality I wanted to see Chelsea win it on Saturday night, and not just to see Redknapp pushed out of Europe. Even though the blue part of London have bought the title over the last few years, I think they have toiled enough with managers and the like in recent times to finally get their paws on the trophy. Abramovich will probably now put his toy down and walk away.
Anyway this guest blog isn’t about Chelsea lifting the trophy or Spurs failing to get a Champions League place. It’s about something else. Watching the final go me thinking about European competition, and whether or not it still has big appeal?
Sky televise 15 live games every game week and millions of pounds for the privilege. It’s this money that affects the way European competitions are structured. It pays for UEFA to have a Champions League in its current format, it pays to have qualifying which filters out the smaller unpopular teams and most of all it pays to have a group stage where some of the worlds “big boys” face each other before any can be knocked out.
The Champions League, and its little brother the Europa League, begin at the end of the previous domestic season with teams fighting for European qualification. The amount of teams qualifying for each tournament depends on the coefficient of the country, so meaning that England and Spain get more spaces because they are bigger more successful nations, and therefore dwarf the smaller nations.
These rules mean that the nations with a low coefficient have clubs in the pre-qualifying and qualifying stages who aspire to make the lucrative group stages which in turn means that the smaller clubs rarely get the chance to make the group stages AND the bigger teams always do so securing more and more money so becoming richer and richer. The Champions League, therefore, does not represent a league of champions as the name would suggest. What it actually represents is a group stage of the rich and famous, plus a few upstarts.
The Europa League can be summed up easily in a few words “wish we were in the Champions League” and that’s the sad truth of how teams who wanted the big league but ended up with second best. Like Spurs and Liverpool who don’t take it seriously because they’re “too big” for it. The only clubs in recent memory who have been bothered were Fulham, Newcastle, Everton and, this season, Stoke, and even then they don’t progress that far (bar Fulham’s final exploits). For me the competition is a dead duck and needs changing.
In the 70s and 80s the love for the European Cup was felt by all and it was an integral part of world football. What’s different now? I tell you, a league stage, a group stage, which is seen by all is a money making scam. Gone are the days when the small teams were going to the Nou Camp for a two leg cup tie, now it’s a game of chess which includes resting players, when it should be a proper knocked competition where Man Utd can be drawn against a lowly Welsh qualifier.
The figures say that 72 clubs start Champions League qualifying and almost 200 clubs start out in the Europa League. Of which there are probably only about 10 champions of respective countries and the rest are made up from the top three or four from England, Italy, Spain and Germany. What UEFA needs to do is have ONE competition which takes the top eight teams (example below) from each league in Europe. Then, because they wouldn’t scrap seeding, have a qualifying round for the lower seeded teams. Then just open the competition up to a free draw with no seedings, straight two-leg knockout cup competition where big teams aren’t favoured and literally anything could happen.
TV wise Sky could pick the top 10 games each round to show right down until the quarter, semi and grand finale. It would reduce the amount of games played so reducing the workload on “overworked” players, cut down on the money spent by fans, allow smaller clubs the chance of earning more money and playing on the bigger stage, and most of all increasing enjoyment/bringing life back into the competition.
How the numbers work…
Either way competition would have eight rounds, all two legs apart from the one game final.
53 countries in UEFA competitions x 8 clubs = 424
Qualifying Round (clubs in countries with bottom 10 coefficient)
So teams would be whittled down from 424 to 256
Then the cup proper….
256 teams – 128 matches
128 teams – 64 matches
64 teams – 32 matches
32 teams – 16 matches
16 teams – 8 matches
8 teams – 4 matches
4 teams – 2 matches
2 teams – 1 match
This would mean that a total of 15 games would be played by each of the teams in the final, or possibly 17 if they had been through qualifying.
So in a nut shell things do need to change, the competition must evolve to survive. The long term sustainability of the Europa League needs to deep investigation, and clearly my idea isn’t without its faults but it’s a simplistic way of bringing the old feel of the European Cup back to the people who matter most, the fans. But hang on, we never matter really, do we Sepp?
Follow me on twitter @BillQuayMag
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133 Comments
“What a shame eh?! Couldn’t happen to a nicer bloke and team could it?!”
I just wanted to repeat that because it is so, so true!!
Hohoho Spuds LOL!
No, football is not about the fans, just like newspapers aren’t about the news, so it won’t happen, but I agree with your concept. It’s more likely that EC’ll become even more of a rich list, becoming a separate league altogether, with no promotion or relegation.
Maybe we could expand your Euro cup concept to become a world cup, so I have chance to see Brisbane Roar play Newcastle in a competitive game. Some hope! But as likely as a Euro knock out competition.
Take into account just this year the runs of Basel and Apoel, the eliminations in the group stages of the Manchester clubs, the fact that these small town clubs do get to go to the best stadiums in Europe, and even over the course of recent history, runs of the likes of PSV and Villareal, the shock final between Porto and Monaco, the wins of Liverpool in 2005 and to some extent Chelsea this year. The competition is brilliant as is. The problem with the Europa League is more down to how certain teams treat it. Predominantly English. One could start be eliminating the third Champions league group team going into the hat for the Europa League knockouts. That’s where much of the non-serious attitude stems from. More coverage and importance to that tournament, as well as considering the timing of the fixtures may all play a role. But it’s difficult because one only has the seven days to play with.
A good read Billy. I used to prefer the European Cup too but unfortunately now, it’s all about the big teams and the money, Uefa and the tv companies wouldn’t want “little upstarts” in the latter stages of the competition. Also your “cup proper” involves more games than the current group stage onwards process, Chelsea played 12 games to reach the final so I can’t see the big clubs being happy with the prospect of another 3 games.
Maka..Congrats, stopped smiling yet?
Good read; there are no implications from spuds being in europa? We dont lose our place then?
Liam…Nope, Spurs go straight into the group stages, effectively they just take the place Chelsea had for winning the FA Cup. We still enter at the play off stage.
i think i just like the idea of the fairs cup revisited really. the 2 leg knock out format has massive appeal to me and yeh the group stage allows some smaller clubs to progress but if you look at Basel’s results, they wouldve got a through a knockout round if they had been playing Manure anyway and APOEL wouldve beaten Porto and Zenit on aggregate had they played them in a knockout format.
i agree with you in the main though Maka, the fact that many of the champions league failures get 2nd and 3rd chances, its ridiculous. in reality they dont want the chances and fixture wise they cant cope with them.
anyway ta for the comments
I remember feeling “slightly guilty” though ecstatic at the same time, when we qualified for the “Champions league” by finishing 2nd….how times have changed.
Bill ,I like the concept but as Richie says it’s not gonna sit well with the bigger clubs due to those extra games . I think you are right about some clubs not taking it seriously ,mainly because the financial reward is not good enough ,but feel you are wrong about including Spurs in that list of teams .Go on any Spurs forum and you will see the fans all want to win the Europa cup now they are in it.It may be that it’s the fans who want it more than the club ,but the desire is there non the less.
As harsh as it is on Spurs, that’s the reason I think Chelsea “deserve” more. At the end of the day you need the current champions in the tournament over a team that finished 4th in a league.
I think the first step to making the Europa league more sought after would be to distribute the tv/prize money more equally.
Say CL gets 3/4 of the money Europa gets 1/4, not fantastic but a good deal better than it is now, it would give teams more incentive to field strong teams in the tournament.
On what mulumbu said on his twitter thing: He certainly would fit the bill, 25 year old solid holding midfield player, Retired from international so no african nations half way through the season and for a fraction of the price they could get for tiote.
Really hope Chieck stays but you can see the logic…
Lets try and persuade Berba to drop his wage demands and come play for us in our european games. He’s said in the past that he’s a Newcastle man as Shearer was his hero…
Am i right in thinking Adam Johnson is a toon fan?
Solano @13 ,I thought he was a Mackem !
AJ that is.
Ah yeah you’re probably right Kim, luckily I don’t think they could fit him in their team, McClean and Larsson are undroppable for them surely.
Johnson was a Toon fan, read a quote saying most of his family are Scum fans but he’s Newcastle, was on our books as a young un.
Richie ,Thanks I knew there was a Mackem connection there somewhere .
“I was at Newcastle when I was a kid from 10-12 before I went to Middlesbrough.” “So I grew up supporting Newcastle and David Ginola and players like that.”
Richie ,Well that’s good enough for me .
Off out now ,laters.
Its a chance for a cup so we should give our full attention.. its not as if our trophey cabnet is over flowing. Be nice to celebrate something
Champs league = league and national cup winners only. That way it retains the glamour of national cups and makes it extra special as a genuine champion of champions competition. Everybody else competes in Europa. That way it has big clubs taking part and the magic is put back into it for the smaller clubs that qualify via league position or cups such as Coca Cola. Make the financial rewards much closer between each European competition and suddenly everbody is much more excited about who wins the domestic league and cups, whilst the European stage retains its glamour and gains authenticity.
Nice article btw, good to read stuff other than transfer speculation that off season brings.
to them as a club. I also remember they went through a period of selling off their best players occasionally to fund a greater volume of quality players to make their squad better. Its only recently they have been in the position to finally dig their heels in and hold on to their star players. It seems NUFC are following the Spurs format of the lasy few years with the aim of getting to the stage where we are again big and successful enough to dig our heels in ourselves….
If i was pards i would be saying to the lads lets get as far as we can in this comp why not take it seriously; we arent good enough to do that.
Bring on inter, etc!
That last paragraph is missing a bit. Basically Reknapp can be a tit talking about other clubs players but generally I quite like Spurs as they have been very similar to us in terms of success since the Premiership began and I feel we are following their model for future suceess with our iwn twist. They have worked hard to get where are now without the backing that Chelsea and Citeh enjoy so there has to be some respect there.
i hope we go for it..lets win it..
i see barton is going to write a book, hes going to spill the beans about what went on at the club
Hitman
You can bet he’ll come across as a philosophic pacifist.
What can Barton put in a book that he hasn’t already tweeted.. Flogger!!
So who are the CB’s we’re being heavily linked to atm?
Arguably will be our most important transfer this summer.
Douglas: Bit temperamental, not rated by a lot on here, decent scoring record.
Mapou Yanga-Mbiwa: Captain of Ligue 1 winning Montpellier, only missed 8 games in three seasons BUT has only 4 career goals.
Pardew did make it specifically clear that he wanted a goal scoring CB (though Saylor could probably fill that role).
Who else are we being linked to
http://www.talksport.co.uk/sports-news/football/premier-league/transfer-rumours/120521/newcastle-face-fight-prise-defender-away-lille-172572
I see DeBoer knocked back Liverpool as well..
I reckon old Joe Kinnear will end up with the job they way they are going
ST
The depressing thing is that I’m serious. He could probably hit 7/8 goals, whereas Caroll only managed four last season. 
I think the fact that Saylor grew up training to be a striker has made him very proficient at scoring goals, if he could stay fit he’d be scoring more goals from CB than the majority of the England forwards at CF.
Saw that one Ice… still could be a chance.. Pards was saying the same about Jose last year
AMF richie knocked them back too,cannot afford his bar bill,so aye could be old joe
AMF aye these days if a player says he wants to go thats it,sad but true m8
Ice
I don’t think Liverpool would want Ritchie to be the ‘face’ of the club mate. He would scare the kids 
The press seem to think we’re third or fourth favourites for Debuchy when we’re the most likely destination for him. Shows what the papers know though, doesn’t it?
AMF
ANDY its the signing of a c/b i worry about,just hope it isnt douglas
The only thing that worries me about the Debuchy deal is that it has so much air time with the press. This has not been the case with most of our latest signings.. So if you work on this theory, he is a no go..
Ice
, just not Douglas.
Me too, Alderweild or M’biwa for me. Or some unknown gem Carr’s got lined up
You have got me worried about this Douglas fella now Ice
AMF
Type into YouTube ‘Douglas Teixera goes mental on the pitch’, worse than Barton.
AMF you should worry m8,unless you were a boomsong fan he will be right up your street,mind i would trust carr, then again everyone makes mistakes
Douglas is too obvious and too public; we will never sign him.
Mockers alert
Wonder how we can find out how many cards he got this season, where’s Axel when you need him?
Saw some vids Andy.. not good… Ice I ain’t no Boomsong fan, so here’s hoping its a bum steer
from Twitter –
PremiershipTalk @Pr3miershipTalk
#NUFC have signed Lille’s versatile Mathieu Debuchy for a fee of £7 million. He will officially join on 1st of July.
JW nee offence but never belive oot from twatter
Icedog – it is on wikipedia too. still not that reliable as you can change wiki very easily. It gets changed very quickly if it’s wrong by the admin. So if it’s still there in an hour I’d believe it more.
Nice if that news was true.. not sure if it is..
icedog says:
May 21, 2012 at 14:35
JW nee offence but never belive oot from twatter
Except for Colin
Ice @48
Aye, me neither. Mind you if it’s true what a cracking signing it is, and a great coincidence since we were just talking about it
ROSSCO,ill wait until t/morrow then
Kieron Dyer has signed a one year extension with QPR
I didn’t even know he was there!
I can’t see us spending 7m on a left/right back.. That amount is about 2 -3m more than what I reckon we will spend.
Now if we can secure a couple of CBs, a/two young non-african(not discriminating, just for ACON
) striker(s), and some more younsters, without losing anyone important we can really press on next season for top 4, and a decent cup and European run 
Not wanting much there Andy
ANDY at the same time i have never know talk sport get oot right either
https://twitter.com/#!/Pr3miershipTalk/status/204562736087171072/photo/1
looks like this on slipped under the radar,but he isnt comeing
http://www.tynetime.com/2012/05/21/vfb-stuttgart-defender-snubs-newcastle-united-offer/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=vfb-stuttgart-defender-snubs-newcastle-united-offer
I think the Debuchy thing is a joke. On Wiki it says:
Mathieu Debuchy (French pronunciation: [matjø dəbyʃi]; born 28 July 1985 in Fretin) is a French footballer who plays for English club Newcastle United Football Club in The English Premier League. He is often deployed in the right back position, but began his career playing as a midfielder usually acting as a deep-lying play-maker. He has stated that Shola Ameobi is his footballing idol.
Kind of belieable until the Shola Ameobi is his idol. Clearly a wind up.
Vertonghen to Spurs also – Confirmed. #THFC chairman Daniel Levy in Amsterdam today to hold talks with Ajax re. Jan Vertonghen. Latest on http://Goal.com shortly.
That one could be true Ice – injured with a release clause.. If he was available on a free, it would be a cert..
Ice
We were linked with him a week or so back, Very talented apparantly.
Still maybe legs in it weve seen agents in the past saying things like that to get a bigger cut or a better wage for their clients…
AMF
He is very highly rated though,it’d be like getting Lahm or Cole for £12m, you’d snap their arm off(maybe not so much for Ashley anymore). Don’t forget we bought Santon for £5m, and we’ll be getting money from the Simpson selling to partially finance it.
AMF
Aye, I’m not asking a lot
Ice
True, that
The thing is, until the money in the Europa League makes it worth it properly then it will always be the little brother. Not that I mind, or that I think it should be as money spinning as the Champions League, but there has to be more parity in it for me for it to work properly.
aye toonsy ssn says that porto only got 5.2 mill for winning the europa league.
chelski got 52 mill for winning CL.
Just as I thought. Wiki no longer says we have signed him.
HITMAN well thats there c/f payed for then,noo he wants to leave
@68
That’s shit, shouldn’t be a tenth of the CL winnings, should be a third or a quarter.
ice
@54 Kieran Dyer is as invisible as
Jermain Jenas both a waste of pair of football boots
I have just returned from sunning it for a week in Corfu (only it pished down for most of it, and im talking thundering and lightening) anyway, the point is that I was surrounded by scousers and Germans all week. The week started with sutterly mocking the bindippers who were either gutted or fuming at the sacking of Kenny. You could only imagine the sense of pride when my little boy started shouting ‘come on the toon’ and ‘Ra Ra Demba Ba’ around the pool.
Then my week came to a close in one of those bizarre moment when I found myself hoping Chelsea won the final. This was for 2 reasons, firstly I hate Spurs or should I say ‘Arry, and secondly because through the whole week the German holidaymaker were rude and obnoxious (one nearly getting a hiding for shouting at my son for wetting him as he sunbathed right next to the child’s pool… prick!!)
I was very vocal throughout and game which culminated in a rendition of ‘we can see you sneaking out’ following the Drogba pen (all inclusive lager to blame for that)
All in all a pretty good week but I’ve missed the crack on here like
Sharpy
You ain’t missed much, Troy predicted a cataclysmic event which he got mocked for, we took the piss out of spurs and discussed the imminent signing of Debuchy.
Oh and the team are pre-seasoning in South Africa.
@andymag
Did my source provide you with a weeks worth of speculation.
There’s not only the financial benefits of the Europa league albeit minuscule in comparison to the CL but it also gets the club noticed in Europe.
That in itself is a huge benefit for attracting new players, fans and commercial opportunities .
I would never underestimate the achievement of qualifying for the Europa league this season.
Thanks for bringing me up to speed Andy, not to go over old ground but what was Troy saying like?
First and last time to Corfu for me like, the papers were a day behind, really expensive buying things and the Internet was expensive to connect to in the hotel but the connection was rubbish aswell… and still no bog roll down the loo… what the hell is all that about like????
Are the boys in SA now?
Sharpy
, teams not yet in SA but will later be confirmed that they’ll be going there in July.
Apparently there was a bust up between the BOD and Pardew
Troy
Kept me amused for a week
@Sharpey
It’s true about the bust up it’s just my source said it would be outed in the press but it never materialised.
Apparently Rotary Vests mediated and sorted it oot owa a spliff.
Troy
Does your source know what the ‘bust up’ was about? Transfers? Contracts? Credibility of Sources?
If there was any truth in that rumour at all it may be the performance of the team against Everton. I know Ashley was raging about the way we finished the season last season against WBA and dropped league positions.
Arsenal and Spurs certainly played there last game like they wanted 3rd alot more than we seemed to. I’m sure if it was anything it would have been no more than a storm in a teacup – hence nothing coming out about it.
Im sure the board would be disappointed not to achieve 3rd or 4th coz of the revenue but probably quickly realized (thanks to a Pardew heated reminder) how well they have done this season.
No, I’m not Troys source – it’s just a theory
Master Troy; Quickly as you can, snatch the pebble from my hand.
[Young Andymag tries to do so and fails]
Master Troy; When you can take the pebble from my hand, it will be time for you to leave.
Troy: I will quote an ancient film reference
Andymagsan: wax on, fuck off
On another topic(personal
)
Just finished my Maths exam, two exams down, three to go, last one’s Friday. Then I’ve eight days of relaxing.
Master Troy; What do you hear?
Andymag; I hear nothing.
Master Troy; look at your feet and see the grasshopper.
Andymag; how did you know it was there master ?
Master Troy; I heard its heart beat.
Some day I will learn you the art of the master.
Andymag; oh yes please master Troy.
Andymag: Master, you stepped on the grasshopper
Troy: Shit!
ah poor Spuds hell slap it up them and old sloppy chops too, couldn’t happen to more deserving people.
Andy have you become Master Troys young apprentice
And it begins
http://m.mirror.co.uk/article?id=842147/
Modric wants to go
Bale looks set to leave
Remy is set to turn them down
Vertonghen looks to turn his attention elsewhere
Who’ve I missed?
BD
No, I’m already a banter master, Troy could learn a few things.
Master Troy; listen young AndyMag. What do you hear now?
Young AndyMag; still nothing oh Master Troy.
Master Troy; the grasshopper still lives.
Young Andymag; How do you know? Can you still hear its heart beat?
Master Troy; no, it must have escaped the sole of my wrestling boots and it’s landed on the end of your nose!
Young Andymag; but you asked if I could hear something and not see something.
Master Troy; I know young Andy, I heard it fart and the smell should be drifting up your nostrils anytime now.
Young Andymag; Poooooh ! Master Troy it’s true ! It stinks!
Master Troy;
Andymag: was it not just you farting master
Troy: you’ve learnt well
Evening chaps remember I mentioned the other night about signings well I can say who the Frenchman is we have apparently triggered a realease clause on: GIROUD
Sorry if you all already know this but my pal who you all may think is pulling my leg but I love it so oh well said that we have triggered a release clause but montpellier are not even talking to us about a deal as they are furious and want to wait till after the euros. Unfortunately it involves a big money move for one of our players and most likely demba ba either in a swap deal or him off to Psg.
I personally think its garbage as montpellier have just won the league and he is a big player right now. Big bucks aswell. But he heads up the list for pards frontman. Trouble is my journo pal told me that drogba is defo leaving so until either Happen I can’t be sure.
Just thought would let you know! Journo mate said also hazard considered joining us if we got champs league but of course we could never afford him:
Could all be garbage but at least things are happening. As for our other possible massive transfer I can tell you axel my man it’s not who you think. That one no update on
Get back to your revision and practice your banter.
Troy
LST
If that’s true that’s immense.
LST thanks for up-date mate,this euros,a.n c,ect just stuffs everthing up
Aye Andy let’s see eh!
Ice I know it’s silly but I can understand the logic it we had a player we wanted to sell makes sense to get maximum for him.
On the GIROUD release clause he reckoned it was a measly £10m which would explain why demba might be a makeweight.
If its true that would be amazing Carr just keeps producing but I reckon other big clubs would be in for him for definite
Troy your teaching him well
LST > Could all be garbage but at least things are happening ? but if it garbage how does it mean things are happening
troy, andymag-
p.s. the mackems are still shite 
Troy – I mean it could be garbage as in GIROUD could have no release clause or that we are even close to signing him but there is no question we are in for the player. How that takes shape and form is purely on journo info. But he is definitely our top striking target
*dave even!
If it’s Giroud then we can wave goodbye to 433 I reckon
well Liam we’ll just have to wait and see, but I think we’ll be waiting a while as I don’t think there will be much transfers done untill after the Euros.
Dave….Transfer wu=indow doesn’t open until the last day of the Euros so you could be right
*window
Rich yeah your right but deals could have and would’ve normally been sorted ready for the window opening
Liam….the trouble is that if this lad who plays in the Dutch league comes you’ll never be able to claim prior knowledge if you don’t name him before he’s named elsewhere
Can players not be signed on a pre contract though? Like podolski at Arsenal.
Dave…I know but with that theory we could have sorted them in Feb/March/April if we wanted
…….. I know what you mean though, it’s always puzzled me as to how clubs announce transfers outside the window, when surely the transfer can’t be registered with the relevant FA’s until the window opens. I think transfers can be done between clubs in the same FA now though 
Aye Richie true but I plan to let someone in on it so they can back me up if the time comes!
Dave that’s true all this talk about debucy seems far too premature teams don’t want to do business until after euros
Andy @110 Beat me to it ,i was just gonna say that
Also @90 
Poor old Spurts.
Andy..maybe but don’t know if they worth the paper they’re written on really…same as a proper contract in that case
Narsingh would have been a good un like, pity it’s not him
Richie
That’s the world we live in, see Torres wants to leave
Andy..as far as I can find, pre contract signals an intent for the player to sign for a particular club and the club to sign him, providing 2 clubs come to an agreement with fee and personal terms between the player and the buying club. It looks like any party can bin it at any time if agreement isn’t reached, the only benefit seems to be that it keeps other clubs out of it whilst negotiations go on……in theory, although I doubt it stops agents still touting players around
RICHIE your reet about contracts which ive said myself a few times (bog rolls imo) in fact there a case last wk,cannot think who it was,sign a pre-contract with a PL club,but has now signed another in spain/italy
Liam@112…..ya’ll have to make sure it’s someone everyone trusts…..sort of narrows it down to me
Ice..aye, no room for morals in the game of modern football
well thats wor lass off to malta (again)
free whoope
That Giroud talk sounds fantastic! But I would be more worried about the players we bring in for the defense! That was our biggest weakness this 2nd half of the season, and also the glaring difference between us and Man City when we played them. Their attack could always just go for it and rely on their defense to pick up anything that came thru. We couldn’t do that at all
Well there should be some more glamour to the Europa league next season with Newcastle, Spurs and Liverpool competing. No offense to Stoke, Fulham and Birmingham but howay.
DJG
Also with the likes of Inter, Schalke and the CL drop outs it’ll be a good competition this year.
Still would have preferred fourth. More prestige and it would have given me an emotional day last sat’day and that’s what football is all about
Troy @ 92
Has the missus kicked you out of bed Moreno?
@Aussie
What’s the temperature like doon under?
@DJG
You say;
No offense to Stoke, Fulham and Birmingham but howay.
Despite you saying no offence, by use of the word Howay, you might as well have explained they are unglamorous sh1te clubs that devalue the competition.
Very rude and offensive!
Troy, about +5C at night and around 15-20C during the day – winter over here mate…
Winter!…You don’t know the meaning of the word
don’t be a hater Rich
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