So I thought I’d have a go at thinking about what makes a big club. What makes a big club club in any case? And has the definition of a big club been clouded by the sudden influx of money into the modern game? I’ve decided to stick to the Premier League for now in an attempt to try and work this out.
Personally I think that money talks so I thought of a few criteria to go along with it. The first one is global brand recognition. This important because it adds to the value of the club, and reflects what it says on the tin. These figures reflect the clubs worldwide fan base. These figures were posted recently and discussed so I’ll keep short and sweet.
Manchester United are in a league of their own with a “brand value” estimated at £853m, and recent signing Kagawa won’t harm that as they look to bolster their reputation in the vast Far Eastern market.
Then there are three clubs between £350m and £400m Chelsea, Arsenal and then Liverpool. I think Liverpool are dropping down and may well have trouble holding onto 4th with Manchester City moving rapidly up to just over £300m. There is then a gap to Spurs at just over £200m
Finally we get down to Aston Villa and Newcastle who apparently have a “brand value” of nearly £90m each.
This sort of explains why pre-season tours are arranged to grow our global presence. Of course the other factor here is recent success.
I’m looking at both the short term and medium term here. The Premier league table aggregated over the last 20 years shows that again Manchester United are in a class of their own with 1663 points. Then we have Arsenal with 1449, Chelsea with 1402, Liverpool with 1334 then a gap to Villa who have 1089 points, Spurs with 1086, Everton with 1034 and Newcastle with 1017. With Blackburn dropping out there is a gap down to City with 784 points.
Looking at the last two years Manchester United have managed 169pts, City 160, Arsenal 138, Chelsea 135, Spurs 131, Then Newcastle on 111. Liverpool and Everton are on 110 with Fulham the only other club managing over 100 points.
Looking at appearances in Europe it is clear how the top of the Premier League has been dominated by a handful of clubs, with only the Europa League providing the rest with a chance to showcase their talents in Europe.
I think it is interesting to look at stadium size and local fanbase. The stadiums were built at a time of relative success for the team otherwise they could not have afforded to do so and the size gives an idea of how much local support is expected. Only three clubs have ground capacity exceeding 50,000 and that is Manchester United (75,811) Arsenal (60,361) and Newcastle (52,387). Then we have clubs with 40k+ in descending order, Sunderland, Manchester City, Liverpool, Aston Villa, Chelsea and Everton.
Lastly I thought I’d have a look at turnover and owners. After all in “soccernomics” there is a correlation between the clubs wage bill and it’s success. There being a much lower correlation between squad cost and success.
Under the new Fair Play rules the idea is to limit the wage bill to ensure that it is controlled by turnover rather than how deep the owners pockets are, but how successful that is going to be is open to debate. Also turnover is again heavily dependant upon success. Champions League football is worth say £40m per year. So gaining success and then planning for it to continue is fatal, ask Leeds or Portsmouth.
It is clear that owners are willing to gamble with success, but not many can afford to do so. American ownership does not look to do so it appears.
So where does that leave us. The Manchester clubs look secure. United, despite their debt, have a massive global brand, and turnover to support their business model, whilst City have very deep pockets and are looking like they will have the prolonged success necessary to avoid the pitfalls of overreaching themselves. Arsenal and Chelsea have the potential to remain big clubs, especially if Chelsea build a new stadium. Spurs and Liverpool are at a crux. Neither have the stadiums, and both would be vulnerable to lack of success. Neither have owners with deep pockets and both could see their global brand falling. Villa have already fallen and unless their new manager can turn them round they will have a long way back up. The two North Eastern clubs both have tremendous potential, but the odd successful season here of there is not enough to break them into the super club level.
Unfortunately it looks as if the Champions League places are Manchester United’s, Manchester City’s, Chelsea’s and Arsenal’s to lose. Much as Spurs and Liverpool would like to see themselves as one of the big four they do not have the resources to shift them and unless their business model is based on Europa League football they are putting themselves in danger. Villa, Newcastle, Sunderland and Everton are all big clubs however none of them have the global brands, the finances or the current success to build on.
A few years of cup runs and maybe the Europa League could provide the momentum to change that and Newcastle have promised much in the last season. But Even a few years of success will not establish you, as Sir Bobby Robson found out to his cost.
@146,lets hope so mate. 😉
kimtoon(Quote)
ime with DAVE @140 😉
icedog(Quote)
Richie thats why he got picked for England, I heard Italy was trying to find out if he had a likeing for Pizzas they were trying to adopt him.
Kim aye I didn’t expect Chris would have the balls to answer my question @ 129
Big Dave(Quote)
Spot on Dave. Get some competition going at the CB position. We are so thin there with Kadar being released. Surely there must be a plan going forward. Just can’t see another season with only 3 CB’s and a couple of youngsters who are nowhere near ready. We have enough midfielders for 2 squads yet refuse to bring in any CB’s. Have never been able to make heads nor tails of it.
GeordieTwo(Quote)
Haha! I love how Chris says “all we have to do is improve. You have to retain”
How is it easier to improve than to stay where you were? Liverpudlian logic at it’s finest 😆
AndrewT(Quote)
No offense intended to Saylor Big Dave and Icedog. I just think we need to improve our depth at that key position to stay in the top 6 and battle well in Europe. Come on Graham put your thinking cap on for this position. Make Krul’s life a little easier! 😀
GeordieTwo(Quote)
Strangely enough, due to his injury, Saylor’s value to the team seems to have grown. Willo is a tryer but when Saylor is back he will form the central defensive pairing with Collo. Would still like us to sign a big strong no-nonsense ball playing centre half though.. 🙄
Munich Mag(Quote)
G”2 i think we all know we need depth in defence m8
icedog(Quote)
Cracking diving header by Given there like 😕
richietoon(Quote)
Croatia 😆 hell slap it up the Irish 😆 😆 😆
Big Dave(Quote)
3-1 Croatia…. 🙁 Wor Shay hasn’t looked too good on the hearders like 🙄
Munich Mag(Quote)
🙁 Heart is.breaking
Johno Toon(Quote)
“headers” even…. can see a 5-1 coming off here… 🙁
Munich Mag(Quote)
Meant to say befor my@101 post should of said Cardiff city not Swansea 😳
kimtoon(Quote)
MM I wanted us to try to get Samba as I think he would have been a good signing for us and IMHO if we had off got him when we lost Saylor we would have finished in the top 3
GeordieTwo @ 155 😉
Big Dave(Quote)
wow what a header
hitman(Quote)
Johno sorry mate 😆 😆
Big Dave(Quote)
Doyle off…it’s all Richietoons fault…. 😆 😆
Munich Mag(Quote)
Dave…Samba would have been a cracking buy, went off chasing the cash though unfortunately.
richietoon(Quote)
Chris – you are a typical Liverpool fan!!
Far too busy trying to run down other clubs and telling the world how ‘big’ a club Liverpool are.
Worry about your own club man, Rodgers WASN’T first choice and no matter how often he, Gerrard or the board keep saying it, everyone knows that Martinez was first choice. Spending stupid money on average players is crazy! There was no other clubs competing to sign Carroll, Henderson or Downing – if they were that good there would have been!!
I agree that our Euro games will be demanding but we will still be top 6 next season. Liverpool HAVE to finish in the top 4 otherwise how can a ‘big’ team not play in the CL 3 seasons in a row.
Sharpy17(Quote)
MM….I just pointed out the obvious 😉
richietoon(Quote)
Big D…I know you are a big fan of Samba’s, I agree with you, he would have been good for us for sure. Hopefully we can find a younger big strong centre half somewhere, we need one otherwise we’ll struggle next season..
Munich Mag(Quote)
Sorry Johno Toon, it looks like an unhappy ending coming there. Feel bad for Given as well. Aye Icedog we all know about our thin CB situation but why does it never get corrected? Should have been taken care of last summer. It probably cost us several points in the league after Saylor went down. Feeling frustrated about it for quite some time now!
GeordieTwo(Quote)
MM I don’t really think he went chasing cash I think he just wanted out no matter where it was, I think if we had of bid for him he would have came in a flash.
Big Dave(Quote)
Ricardo@168 spot on there mate, if the bloke doesn’t wanna come he aint gonna come. We have to perhaps thrown even more cash into the ring to get the players to come to the cold north…
Munich Mag(Quote)
I can remember quite a few on here at the start of the season saying that Willo was a better player than Saylor, but it’s good to see that so many now realise that I was right all along 😀
Big Dave(Quote)
Big D…I think it was probably an age thing with Samba. Funny like, I watched Samba playing for Hertha Berlin years ago and he looked like a real dud. Just shows how blokes can improve…
Munich Mag(Quote)
aye the luck of the Irish 😆 😆
Big Dave(Quote)
MM I think the transfer fee might have had something to do with it too 😉
Big Dave(Quote)
Dave… I think people said that more the season before last as Saylor came into the team last season and did well with his 3 goals in 3 (or whatever it was)
richietoon(Quote)
Dave….and the 100k pw wages he’s reportedly on 😯
richietoon(Quote)
Richie @ 179 your right but there was still alot saying it at the start of the season 😉
Big Dave(Quote)
Dave…fickle feckers 😆
richietoon(Quote)
richietoon
Wow wow wow, i wasnt saying LST was an ITK, all i stated was from what i vaguely remeber was correct, he said drogba would leave (which was admittedly obvious), and that we were after a player who was in the provisional dutch squad. which Vernun Anita is/was. I diddnt mention any league in which they play there football.
none of this is important however as it would appear Anita isnt the player LST was going on about. 😀
Alex(Quote)
shame for the irish,they were out played imo,that mcgready hasnt changed from is days in scotland,couple of good smacks and gans missing,nee wonder they took him off
icedog(Quote)
Ice 😉 aye Mcgreedy is a walter 😀
Big Dave(Quote)
Alex….I didn’t say you said he was “ITK” that was my phrase for Liam’s mate….I was just staing that he hadn’t really got anything right yet, as we haven’t signed any player from the Dutch league(yet) and that judging by how excited Liam was that I didn’t believe that Anita was the one he was talking about, which Liam has confirmed. I wasn’t having a go at you or Liam, just pointing out the facts so far 😉 …….and 3 wows is a little excessive imo 😆
richietoon(Quote)
and Shay looked like he was at a line of something white 😆
Big Dave(Quote)
Richie stop picking on people you big bully 😀
Big Dave(Quote)
Dave…I’m just misunderstood 😕
richietoon(Quote)
RICHIE been on the “red bull”again i see
icedog(Quote)
Ice…defo not, it’s minging stuff…..and it doesn’t give you wings either 😯
richietoon(Quote)
the dont make wings big enough to help you fly mate 😀
icedog(Quote)
I don’t want them to fly, I want them battered and fried to eat 😉
richietoon(Quote)
thinking aboot eating again i should have known
icedog(Quote)
Ice Richie needs a good old fashioned Herc when he flies
Big Dave(Quote)
Ireland got royally f-cked by Croatia. 😆 Take that Duff you A-howwll.
Andymag(Quote)
Ice 😉 …whey thats me outta here, early start tomorrow.
richietoon(Quote)
Dave…ya can’t beat a bit of economy class Herc travel 😆 reet I’m gone, later lads.
richietoon(Quote)
rich… haha may have been excessive. But i am very much anti itk. To be honest i wish lst would stop being a gimp and tell us who it is :D. Personally hope its affalay, al though unlikely.
Alex(Quote)
richie laters mate
icedog(Quote)
ALEX aye i like that kid pleased they took him off before he showed owr much 😉
icedog(Quote)
Alex….affalay, Narsingh or Bas Dost would do me…reet I’m defo away 🙄
richietoon(Quote)
Richie ❗
Big Dave(Quote)
later lads/lasses 😉
icedog(Quote)
Ice be good lad
Big Dave(Quote)
Seems like ol Danny boy knows how to throw a party
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-2157281/Danny-Guthries-wedding-turns-mass-brawl.html
Aussie Magpie Fan(Quote)
good article Prem…
From an Australian point of view (Intelligent, concise and always right) 😎
The way I see it, it goes like this… In the 80’s Liverpool won lots of titles & trophy’s blah blah blah. That lead to every so so fan of football in OZ supporting Liverpool because, you guessed it, they were winning things…. Fast forward a few years and guess who the majority of fans in OZ support nowadays… Man U.. I can’t speak for other countries but in Oz the popularity of a club is in direct proportion to the amount of titles they have won. Any fan that is not tied geographically to a team generally looks to the top of the table and picks a team from there. Big is a strong word when it comes to describing a club.. Glamorous is a word that can be used, some teams like Barca and Real could be defined in those words I suppose. So in Australia we see a whole lot of Liverpool, Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal & now Man City.
It doesn’t mean these clubs are big – just more recognizable.
So all that probably contradicts my own situation as I support the Toon
Aussie Magpie Fan(Quote)
you couldn’t make this **** up 😆 😆
http://www.turkish-football.com/news_read.php?id=3026
Aussie Magpie Fan(Quote)
Hi Aussie
as well as glamorous I like to distinguish between big and successful. I’d include a lot of clubs as big, but they have become big by being successful at some point in their history. Currently we have about 10 big clubs being successful in the EPL, and another 10 either making their name or remaking it eg Wigan & Bolton. Of these top clubs we have 3 super clubs with mega money, the rest can’t match that. However, that landscape will change over the next 10 to 20 years. City have arrived, Liverpool appear on decline. What next?
premandup(Quote)
Big Timmy looks impressed – Fair effort even for a warm up 😉
http://www.foxsports.com.au/football/euro-2012/netherlands-wesley-sneijder-teaches-misfiring-strikers-a-lesson-with-amazing-back-heeled-volley/story-fndz7cg9-1226390950466
Aussie Magpie Fan(Quote)
Prem, I’m already seeing lots of freshly minted light blue city tops appearing here in Australia on the backs of young fans.. all aboard….. 😕
Aussie Magpie Fan(Quote)
You forgot to put deluded in your brackets @208 😉
That vid doesn’t play inthis “region” 🙁
richietoon(Quote)
well well, if it isn’t bloody Richietoon 👿 😎
Aussie Magpie Fan(Quote)
Rich maybe go to youtube and type in sneijder back heel goal, fair effert even for a **** around.. check Timmy’s reaction…
Aussie Magpie Fan(Quote)
Canny goal like, can’t really see Timmy’s face as it goes in(not clear enough) and none of the clips show it after 😕
richietoon(Quote)
yeah it is not real clear… he’s mainly clapping like an excited kid…
Aussie Magpie Fan(Quote)
so how much are England gonna lose by tonight?
Aussie Magpie Fan(Quote)
Chris
What you dont seem to realize is that 70% of the supporters here don’t live anywhere near Newcastle.
How can you state they have no support south of Gatehead.
They may not have the same support worldwide of Man U, Liverpool, Arsenal… And until recently Chelsea and Man City.
They are way above the rest though and without doubt one of the top 25 most recognized in the world.
And trophy success would see them sky rocket into the top ten.
JJ(Quote)
Aussie…are you south of the ‘Heed?
Iwas just thinking last night that on the whole the games have been canny in Euro2012 so far, England will sort that oot later though 😆
A draw I reckon, Commmmme on England!
richietoon(Quote)
JJ…ooohhhh look at you starting of with a sensible post 😉
Reet of up North for the day, have a good un and remember…”let’s be careful out there” probs before your time JJ but that auld fecker Strop will remember it 😉 😆
richietoon(Quote)
I think England will do well tonight and then fall over in a heap when the pressure gets put on, say in a semi with penalties 😆
Definitely south of the “Heed” mate…
Actually my missus say I do much thinking with the southern heed 😆 😆
Aussie Magpie Fan(Quote)
JJ
June 11, 2012 at 07:40
Chris
What you dont seem to realize is that 70% of your opinion is bollox
I’ve sorted that for you JJ, though I reckon you’re being a bit generous there 😯 😆
richietoon(Quote)
I may be reading too much into this but I am starting to detect a slight disrespectful tone from Richie towards me… 😯
Aussie Magpie Fan(Quote)
Aussie 😆 ….though I’d heard it was on ya ‘Heed
richietoon(Quote)