TV money being poured into football has changed the landscape of the game, even just in the last ten years or so. Being a lifelong NUFC fan in my mid-twenties and having lived in different areas of the UK, I always come across the debate of exactly what makes a ‘big club’.
With Newcastle returning to the Premier League, there is a lot of debate on what they can achieve and where they ‘belong’. The main thing that irritates Newcastle fans is the myth levelled at them that they expect too much, Champions League football (as Craig Bellamy incorrectly stated recently) or even when Sir Alex Ferguson said we expect to “win the World cup.” A team that is entertaining to watch, has pride in the shirt and is competitive in the top flight is pretty much all we want.
That being said, are Newcastle a big club? Let’s analyse a range of factors to measure just where we sit in the modern game.
Success on the pitch
This tends to be the main yardstick for measuring the size of club, so let’s look at three factors as part of this; average league position, trophies won and European football participation.
Average league position – 9th
Sky Sports recently published a study highlighting showing each club’s average league position. The data has two factors, each team had to appear in the top four divisions for at least 15 seasons and the average is taken from the 1967/8 season onwards.
| Rank | Team | Average league position |
| 1 | Liverpool | 3.44 |
| 2 | Arsenal | 4.96 |
| 3 | Manchester United | 5.08 |
| 4 | Tottenham Hotspur | 8.882 |
| 5 | Everton | 9.00 |
| 6 | Chelsea | 10.86 |
| 7 | Manchester City | 13.38 |
| 8 | Aston Villa | 14.88 |
| 9 | NEWCASTLE UNITED | 15.00 |
| 10 | West Ham United | 15.06 |
This is a really useful measure as getting an average from such a long period of time covers both good periods and the darker times. Newcastle sitting 9th and in striking distance of a few teams above feels about right.
Trophies won
This is universally the first comment Newcastle fans are taunted with when the big club debate arises. Of course, truly massive clubs win trophies regularly. But does Swansea or Birmingham both winning the league cup once each in the last ten years make them bigger clubs than us? Although we have had a long lean spell, it is not as bad as you would think when you consider there are only really two cups to try and win each year.
Historically, we remain the 9th most successful team in England in terms of trophies won, though a lot of that is not recent of course. It is also worth considering however that there are only 14 clubs who have won a trophy more recently than us in the Premiership at the moment. So like league position, looking at trophies won, we are still around the 9th mark.
European football
As there are not loads of trophies to go around, the next measure of success that stems from a good league position is qualifying and competing in European competition. Taking away the usual ‘big four’, Newcastle have enjoyed some memorable European campaigns.
We have competed in the Champions League on four occasions in the last twenty years, which not many current Premier League rivals have achieved, barring the superpowers. We have also had runs to the Europa League/Uefa Cup Semi’s and Quarters in recent memory.
Uefa composes a European co-efficient ranking. This considers recent European performance and the strength of league you compete in, giving you a score which then determines who is the best team in Europe. Newcastle lie 68th in this list currently and the 8th best placed team in England. This measure again suggests Newcastle are not the largest or most successful team in England but certainly one of the bigger clubs.
Stadium size and fan base
This is arguably Newcastle’s biggest strength. Many clubs would love to have the support Newcastle enjoy and even last year in the Championship our average attendance was 51,064. This until recently was one of the highest in England but now ranks 6th for supporter numbers. Mike Ashley blocking expanding St. James’ Park may catch up with us eventually with many clubs investing in new Stadiums, with Spurs and Everton hoping to move into new ones soon.
One of the measures of a big club is still its support and Newcastle rank highly here.
Attracting big names
A sign of a big club is also the ability to attract big names or stars. This is an area Newcastle have historically punched above their weight in. Breaking the world transfer record to sign Shearer in 1996 was one instance, as was signing Michael Owen for our club record fee of £17m. Although he didn’t perform as hoped, signing a key England player from Real Madrid in his supposed prime was a real coup that not many other clubs would have been able to pull off.
We also famously brought Kevin Keegan to the club as a player and manager when we were not even in the top flight; something that feels similar now with attracting Rafa Bentiez to NUFC. Not too many other English clubs could have attracted him to the club, let alone in the second tier.
Finances
Finances are increasingly becoming king in modern football. The lack of investment in players from Mike Ashley is something fans are concerned about this summer if we are to compete next year. Deloitte publish a useful guide each season showing turnover of all football clubs, which is a guide to their commercial clout. The last report had Newcastle at 21st worldwide, the first time we have been out the 20 for a long while. This places us as 11th in England and the slipping down the list is mainly down to poor management of the club, resulting in two recent relegations. However, being around the top 20 richest teams in the world, whether it is inflated by TV money or not, is a measure of a big club.
Global following
This is an area Newcastle are weaker and are trying to improve. Our income from sales and merchandise abroad is one area Charley is trying to increase with links to the Chinese market and the new shirt sponsor. Being based in the North East is also often cited as a problem to being a truly big club; but as Manchester shows, if you have success on the pitch and finance behind you, location becomes less of an issue.
Interestingly, Newcastle are again ranked 9th for social media followers in the Premier League, which in modern times does show a good indication of a wider following beyond match attendance.
So where do Newcastle sit?
As all of the measures show, Newcastle sit at the lower end of the top 10 teams in England in most areas. This aligns with where we should aim to be competing once we establish ourselves in the Premier League and providing of course Ashley backs Benitez. There are always successful periods and lower times but as an average we are in the group below the big 4-6 teams. With good management, investment and time, there is no reason we can’t be competing in the top 6-8 again and only the bigger clubs have the capabilities to do this.
I think we are probably correct to avoid the PL market except for Chelsea loanees and Man City rejects. I am not even sure if it is worth a bid if the rumoured 20 million offer for Tom Cairney was turned down.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
Mate, I have been less than impressed with most of who we been linked with and as for the prices, it’s madness. The whole scene will go tits up before long if you ask me.
kimtoon(Quote)
Would love us to of tried to get Little Pea though, there’s goals there.
kimtoon(Quote)
Bring back Benny, he’s on a free, Rafa will set him right #lastchancesaloon
kimtoon(Quote)
I read an article today about what you could get for a Romelu Lukaku. 50 million kilos of sausage, a Chateaux in the Loire Valley with Champagne coming out of the taps instead of water, free beer for life and a private Island to drink it on for you and 100 of your closest friends.
That’s shocking, but even more shocking is that you could get 15 million kilos of sausage for a Tom Cairney.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
And, with transfer fee and wages he would cost about the same as Tom Cairney.
I know I am fixated on Tom Cairney, I just think he sums up the current state of things where 20 million doesn’t even get you a second division player with 10 games in the PL 7 years ago.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
I mean, I thought Sissoko at 30 million was the height of madness, but 25 million for Cairney? Sissoko has 52 French caps at least. Cairney has 1 Scotland cap which I have said before doesn’t count.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
So we just don’t bother paying the market prices and hope we don’t go down with the squad we have?
Stuart79(Quote)
Problem is Eric, we benefitted hugely from the inflated prices when selling Sissoko and Wynaldum so for us to expect the market rate to reduce when buying is just plain stupid!
Stuart79(Quote)
Life isn’t fair Stuart. We can complain about it but we have no choice but to pay the going rate or we will be back in the Fizzy. Rafa hasn’t had time to fix the academy so there is little chance of us getting homegrown talent, so we are stuck. I sort of feel sorry for Charnley, almost.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
With a few additions we could be mid-table but that is only because Rafa is so good of a coach. We have seen it before with Managers like Clough who turned journeymen like John Robertson into European champions. I think we will survive if Rafa stays, but then what…
Eric Sykes(Quote)
Of course, it could be Tulip Time. Named after a notorious bubble in 17th Century Holland where rare tulips were fetching the same prices as houses and which ruined the Dutch economy for 100 years. The latecomers were left bankrupt which could happen to yer Watfords and yer Bournemouths if this bubble bursts or this Tulip fades.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
I’m referring to people saying we shouldn’t be paying the prices for the players we’ve been looking at. If we don’t then we will have a struggle.
Stuart79(Quote)
I know what you are getting at. What I am saying is that it is dangerous either way. It is like Wile E. Coyote running off the cliff, he hangs in mid-air until he realizes he is hanging in mid-air and then…. That could be what happens to a few in the PL.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
Would you buy:
Nathan Ake for 20 million
Tom Cairney for 25 million
Jesse Lindgard for 40 million
Anthony Martial for 56 million
Jordan Ibe for 16 million
a 29 year old Sigurdsson for 35 million
Rooney for 10 million plus 150k a week
Dier for 50 million
Walker for 50 million
Eric Sykes(Quote)
Some of this will make Xisco, Riveire and Marceleno look like bargains.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
I’m not looking at them actual players, Eric for us. I’m talking about the fact that these players have moved for these prices which show the prices are moving upwards very fast. That has implications for every player and players we want. It means their prices go up a lot too.
What we saying here? We shouldn’t pay the increased prices and just take our chance with the squad we have?
I’ve always wondered what the point in a billionaire owner is if they’re not going to help the club out. Remarkably the only time Jabba as ever put money into NUFC has been to put right is **** ups. He’s never once put money in to buy players.
It’s time for him to go.
Stuart79(Quote)
Stuart: I agree we sort of have to get involved because the price is the price now, but it is dangerous. I put a couple of players in that list above like Ake and Ibe because if we are not fishing in the same pond as Bournemouth we are in trouble. But, should we be paying overinflated fees, or go shopping elsewhere – Spain and Germany? For the same price do you go on Holiday to Skegness or Santorini? We have a choice.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
AND. And… It is so slow that Olly’s transfer gossip on this site consists of: who we are NOT going after, who we are NOT going to get, and which clubs have turned us down 🙂
Eric Sykes(Quote)
Spot on mate, players have come in quickly only in windows where we are fighting relegation or the summer before fizzy pop kicks off in order to get us back up.
kimtoon(Quote)
Yes, Eric Sykes will not win the lottery this week (didn’t buy a ticket), will not be sleeping with Katy Perry and will not score the winner in the world cup final.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
Eric, I once read an agent say that foreign clubs add a few million on to the price when PL clubs enquire after a player. They call it the English tax, doesn’t apply to other countries.
kimtoon(Quote)
We have no choice other than to splash the cash if we wanna survive the PL. I can’t believe he’d be so stupid as to let us go forward ill prepared again. If we were to drop again then the fast **** wouldn’t deserve to have us come back up again. As always it’s the fans who’d suffer and what the hells happening with the Chinese thing? all gone a bit quiet.
kimtoon(Quote)
Who the fk is Stormzy?!
shamrock(Quote)
Kimtoon: I saw that was said when Sunderland were in for N’Dong (suitable name for Mackems). The Chairman of the club couldn’t believe what was being offered, they thought he wasn’t even worth half of what the Mackems paid. They paid a stupidity tax. But, I agree there seems to be a PL tax now judging by the prices we are quoted from **** leagues and for payers who are 29.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
Oh, and for every Beardsley and Pirlo of players in their 30s that work out there are about 50 that don’t.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
Including Pirlo to NY 🙂
Eric Sykes(Quote)
Gerrard to LA.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
im hoping Ashley realises he aint gonna make much profit in the Prem due to the inflated prices for players… he wont pay big fees so it might make him think.. is it worth it & sell…
if we dont get started well lose rafa and head straight back down.
Gashley(Quote)
I will also not win the Nobel Peace Prize, will not invent a time machine and will not drink 12 pints of lager accompanied by vodka chasers and throw up in the fire place.
(no, it will be 13 lagers and 13 chasers).
Eric Sykes(Quote)
Kim, don’t count on Chinese investors. Chinese government recently released a policy prohibiting “irrational investment on foreign football projects”.
it was mentioned in this article: https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2017/jul/03/newcastle-rafael-benitez-transfers-walk-out
funrafa(Quote)
He’s Man Utd’s new CF mate – keep up ?
Sharpy17(Quote)
Sham he’s a grime artist, he actually says he’s the lukaku of grime in his lyrics I think, so it’s all the more hilarious 😆
kimtoon(Quote)
Aye mate I read an article about it the other day funny enough. Ashley’s timing is pap if the talk of investment is even true.
kimtoon(Quote)
Big story in the Chronicle today “Will Shelvey inherit the number 8 shirt so Lejeune can have number 12”. They pay at least 4 fulltime reporters to come up with this. Way to go Lee, your underlings are following in your great tradition of in depth and hard hitting investigative reporting.
What next? Which dog breeds are NUFC players’ favourites?
Eric Sykes(Quote)
Either way it looks like our targets are falling by the wayside.
Stuart79(Quote)
Kim, Sharpy – to me Grime is a built up layer of food sediment, fat, dust, dirt and bacteria.
Some chise to clean that sort of stuff and some apparenrly like to write lyrics in it…
The kids of the new world are baffling…
shamrock(Quote)
Shocking isn’t it?
shamrock(Quote)
I think it’s fair to say that prices aren’t inflated. They’re linked to the current incomes of the clubs mainly through increased tv money.
Stuart79(Quote)
It is so slow that I have written about 20 things on Rooney and Stuart is probably going to post an inflation adjusted cost index for players next. Still, not quite as bad as The Chronicle wondering out loud about shirt numbers.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
Sham – ? Class
I have to be honest it isn’t my thing either like. But then according to my boy, I like old mans music ?
Sharpy17(Quote)
I’d love to see us sign Navas, Jacob Murphy & Gibbs this week – mega optimistic I know, but I was gonna hoy a CF on there too ?
Sharpy17(Quote)
Sharpy: isn’t your boy like 9? What sort of “old mans music” does he say you like? Harry Stiles? Shaqira? Beethoven. Radiohead?
Eric Sykes(Quote)
???
shamrock(Quote)
So now the Telegraph are running the story that Rafa has “demanded” that the club increase their offer for Murphy. This Barnes fella too is causing problems.
This club is being lined up to be sold. No doubt. Inactivity, Jabba’s financial henchman parachuted into the club for the last six months and someone close to Ashley letting it be known he’d be interested in selling.
Would Jabba be arsed if we didn’t sign another player if he was to sell the club in Sept with £80m in the bank? It’s worth more after all.
Stuart79(Quote)
Eric – I have a wide range mate, from James Taylor through to Oasis. I think we were listening to ocean colour scene at the time of his insult.
He is a fan of Timberlake (off the back of the Trolls movie I guess). He’s into the Rag & Bone man at the mo & knows the words to his latest song. But we carpool to Elvis ??
Sharpy17(Quote)
http://c.newsnow.co.uk/A/893315286?-11058:809:3
Not really the actions or words of a guy with one foot out the door like.
Sharpy17(Quote)
Did you read the article mate???
There was no quote from Raffa at all…. let alone him demanding anything…. 😯 😯
Aussie(Quote)
All this ***** would go away if we actually made a move for a player. Atsu was already with us remember and the fee had to be paid within a certain amount of time after Fizzypop season closed. Then heaven knows how many weeks to seal the deal on Lejeune , who lets face it is not a stand out signing ; though I concede may yet be awesome .
When you see other clubs closing deals within a week or less, you have to wonder why we take so long.
I’m seeing no intent if I’m honest and any momentum built up over last season is washing away rapidly, if I was Rafa I would be tearing my hair out.
kimtoon(Quote)
Aussie – the link I’ve just posted does quote Rafa, but sadly it does not serve to support the theory that Rafa is ****** off.
Thanks Rafa!!, thanks a bunch!!.
Sharpy17(Quote)
Sharpy 😆
Aussie(Quote)
Liam @LiamDavidBell · 6m
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@CraigHope_DM is to blame
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Mark DouglasVerified account @MsiDouglas · 3m
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His story was right – there were a few overreactions but understandable
kimtoon(Quote)
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Luke Edwards Retweeted Telegraph Football
Tension behind the scenes is not unusual with Benitez but this is getting worse not better #nufc
kimtoon(Quote)
Kim, can you ask Luke Edwards how he knows what is going on behind the scenes! ? ?
Aussie(Quote)
https://twitter.com/classicshirts/status/884399912783413248
Number 8 is mine
kimtoon(Quote)
I never said Rafa had said anything. I just mentioned the article and gave my opinion on the current situation.
Although managers are never quoted directly because these stories more often than not are from people within the club. Those who speak to Rafa alot. Although I think many people just think these people just make things up just to destabalise the club. That is laughable.
Stuart79(Quote)
To be fair there is friction between Rafa and club most places he’s been when it comes to signings .
Also, no smoke without fire as they say mate.
kimtoon(Quote)
So the press don’t make up **** to sell papers and increase advertising revenue. Wow, i never thought you were that naive mate..They didn’t even say “a close source” and yet you draw attention to the negative conitations of the article, simply because it helps support your beliefs and nothing else.
Aussie(Quote)
Aussie – You’re the naive one. Every journo has someone in the club who feeds them info. If you don’t think that’s the truth then fair enough, but it’s beyond naive.
Stuart79(Quote)
Kim – no smoke without fire is a well known idiom.
Another is – throw enough mud at the wall and some of it will stick.
Sharpy17(Quote)
I think Rafa is getting frustrated at the way things are now. He is old school and realises that average players are being priced at excessive rates. I am not really sure what he can do about it except look outside the PL. When a sack of potatoes (Rooney) costs 50 million quid (inc. wages) you have wonder what is going on.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
Looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like a duck… is a duck.
Looks like a potato, plays like a potato, talks like a potato… is Wayne Rooney.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
Sharpy I think a lot of fans are too quick to believe Ashley/the club can change their way of running the club. The simple truth is that we only act quickly in the window when we are either threatened with relegation or needing to get back up. I also want to know what this Barnes fella is at the club for exactly given the Chinese thing seems to of come to nothing.
It’s true that really average players are now commanding inflated fees but from where I am standing there really is only two options. Given money has choked the beautiful game to death, we either pay up to try and stay safe or don’t and prepare to go back down.
kimtoon(Quote)
Every club has an insider that leaks info to the press eh! ??
So the 150+ players linked with us are genuine targets based on insider knowledge ???
Aussie(Quote)
Aussie – I think you’re confusing the two to be honest. Player links are generally the players agent trying to drum up interest. That just isn’t the same as a story coming out of a club.
Have a lie down and think about it.
Stuart79(Quote)
Kim – I hear what you are saying and largely agree with it. The problem I have is that our squad is already full of bang average or below average players.
I think the main one that has me confused is Gibbs. If the reports are true that he is available for £8m – he should be signed up by now.
The Loftus-Cheek one is disappointing, but I can only conclude the lad wanted to stay in London.
Sharpy17(Quote)
Not confused at all mate ? you choose to believe the press releases that fit with your view on things and the press releases that don’t, are simply rubbish!
I will lay back now, in the couch with a port and some tv! ??
Aussie(Quote)
Sharpy, agree, lot of deadwood to shift for sure to fund incomings, but we cannot afford to be left behind like previous windows, that’s how we came to go down. That and ***** managers or a manager given no time to right the ship.
Player interest links I don’t pay to much heed to as it’s mostly bullshit by bored media but there is too much stuff on Rafa being pissed off now to not have any truth to it. He’s bound to be frustrated with the lack of action it stands to reason. Given the lies fed to previous managers by the regime it does give cause for concern.
kimtoon(Quote)
Aussie, Easy on the port mate, you’ll get gout . 😉
kimtoon(Quote)
Kim – I don’t doubt Rafa will be frustrated. But I reckon other than Koeman, Wagner and perhaps Jose now he’s got Lukaku – most managers will be frustrated – some more than others.
I suspect of all the players we’ve been linked with, some of them will be on Rafas wish list – and the better ones are still available (as in no other club has signed them yet) so that is good news to a degree.
I guess there is about 50 days of the window left, and the club want to make sure the money is spent wisely – but there is a lot of ***** to shift as well.
Sharpy17(Quote)
Sounds like he’s already had too much port!
Anyone would think Jabba has never messed any manager about.
Stuart79(Quote)
As far as I am aware Loftus Cheek and Abraham have virtually no proven track record in any elite league. Same goes for this Murphy kid we are aupposedly hping to sign and same goes for Atsu.
I am not overly impressed with what we have done so far and am not saddened in the slightest at missing out on young unproven talents. What we need is experience, but that costs money…
Still not particularly worried, as what webhave done ao far pretty much mirrors everywhere else, bar Everton, who even complete deals on a Sunday.
Would like to see a couple of players come in that I can look at and be confident that they will take us to a new level. So far of all the linked players they have been dull and uninspiring, save Bas Dost.
shamrock(Quote)
https://www.premierleague.com/news/397434
This is our progress so far compared to everybody else. Aboit average. No need for hysteria.
One thing holding us back will be lack of outgoings. No doubt we will be playing the overinflated transfer fee game for sales too. I can see a delige of final window day deals.
shamrock(Quote)
Sham, there will be madness on deadline day I’m sure, but I would prefer our stuff is all sorted before then as not sure my nerves are up to it.
kimtoon(Quote)
Sham – experience does cost money mate. I’ve was looking up the latest with Lucas this morning and whilst he could be got for around £4-5m (which is fair based on the prices at the mo) he’s wanting £75k pw – which if we sign him on a 3yr deal is still just shy of £12m.
Sharpy17(Quote)