Maybe, just maybe, next weekend will prove more fruitful in terms of football results?
We’ll see on that one, but on the basis of the performance against Liverpool I wouldn’t want our highly-paid footballers to feel put out by having to play football for 90 minutes. Heaven forbid. Perhaps I’m being harsh? Maybe it’s understandable that the lads are looking a little jaded? I mean we have had to soldier on with pretty much the same starting XI for the bulk of the season.
That’s part of the problem though – strength in depth. We all know it, it’s been said umpteen times by many posters and we have to hope that it is one of the things that will be addressed in the summer. Adding to the overall quality of the squad is a must, but to add quality first you must maintain what you already have at your disposal.
Keeping hold of the core that we have is vitally important for us. Players like Joey Barton, Kevin Nolan and, even though I think it’s futile trying to attempt to, Jose Enrique is equally as important as strengthening the squad is. This is where the problem starts.
It’s very very easy for me to sit here and type that. It’s common sense that you need to keep hold of your better players. Unfortunately it’s not always quite as easy as that and there are other factors that come in to play yet we, collectively as fans, seem to assume that it’s some sort of failing on the part of the club if a player chooses to move on to a better club.
Unfortunately, and this may come across as a big negative, it’s time for a bit of realism.
The fact is that we are, at the moment, a club that is looking to stabilise in the Premier League. We are unlikely, barring some miracle, to be in a position where we can push for Europe next season and top-ten is probably the realistic goal we should be aiming for.
There are an awful lot of clubs that are much much better than us. There is a new top-four made up of Manchester Utd, Chelsea, Arsenal and Manchester City, followed by Tottenham and Liverpool who pretty much have Europe sewn up year-on-year. The fact is that these sides have been improving whilst we have been declining in the last eight years or so.
It will take time, investment, patience and good luck to be able to get in a position to compete over the length of a season with any of those teams, so with that in mind, if you were a player that had your eyes on playing in Europe would you go for the long haul or the short haul option? I’m guessing the latter.
I’m using Enrique as the example here, even though he could still surprise us and sign on again at Newcastle. Put yourself in his shoes. If a team playing in Europe came calling, what would you do? Remember, there is very little loyalty in football, and we constantly get told that footballers have short careers. Why not instant success?
I guess the point I’m trying to make is that when certain clubs come calling there is generally only going to be one outcome. I call it the football food chain, and right now we aren’t near the top of it. It isn’t new and it’s always happened.
Until we can get ourselves to a level where we can compete with the big boys around Europe we will see our better players leaving. There may be odd exceptions to that rule, but it’s generally how it works – in fact it’s how Newcastle, for decades, have worked.
All this talk of aiming for Europe is premature in my opinion. We aren’t going to take the Premier League by storm like last time. We aren’t in 1994 anymore and the league is a very different proposition to what it once was. The fact that this season has been widely regarded as being one of the closest and exciting leagues to date yet the same teams occupy the top spots says a lot.
Players come, players go, but as long as they go to the top clubs I’m not overly concerned as it means they must have been doing something right for us in the first place. It’s just, unfortunately, one of those things.
It’s when we start selling our better players to teams that are worse than us I’ll start to worry!
Good read 🙂
The last line sums the whole situation up!
If Man Utd want a player they get them, so do Chelsea.
Chelsea wanted Torres in Jan, Liverpool didn’t want to lose him. Chelsea paid an enormous fee, they sold him.
Jobey07(Quote)
cannot understand toonsy not doing a thread on larrson 😆
ed is in love with him 😳
icedog(Quote)
Sensible copy toonsy but despite the need for patience, it won’t stop some fans expecting instant success. Just look at citeh and despite the zillions spent, they’re tapping on the door of the champions league. Man U are always going to have a foot in that door and that’s taken years of building on success or near success. It’ll take a few years before we’re anywhere near those heights and in the meantime, we must have faith in the club’s owner, manager, staff and players – whoever they may be. I’ve no doubt that MA’ll invest and there’s one thing for sure – he’ll not accept failure to achieve whatever milestones he agrees (if that’s the correct word) with Pardew or whoever’s in the hot seat. We’ll get there – in time.
lesh(Quote)
i think edd in love with judas to
shearer(Quote)
Ice – I can do one if you like? 😆
toonsy(Quote)
dog- it’s been a few weeks since the last Larsson article so ed proabably figured it was time.
I actually somewhat rate Larsson. Not as the saviour for our club or anything, but on a free I’d take him in a heartbeat.
MDS(Quote)
Regarding the article- though the top clubs have always been able to swoop in at their whim, the new financial rules will probably effect that a little bit.
MDS(Quote)
MDS – And the levelling out of Champions League money. 🙂
toonsy(Quote)
I agree with Toonsey, ideally we should only be selling to clubs abroad as well. However, looking at this year it’s been consistancy that has let us down, and agreed that is due to lack of strength in depth. If we hadn’t thrown away the points we were we should not have done we would I suspect be a dozen points more on the board. Next season our target as a minimum should be to get those dozen extra points and be looking at approaching 60points for the season. Not enough for the top six, but enough to be a contender again.
Premandup(Quote)
toonsy- what do you mean? Hadn’t heard that
MDS(Quote)
MDS – At the minute the bigger teams get more money from the Champions League whereas teams from Scotland only get a small portion from the pot. It’s being levelled so each team gets the same share in the future,
toonsy(Quote)
Scotland as an example. Could be Ukraine, Russia etc etc
toonsy(Quote)
TOONSY no bloody thanks 👿
icedog(Quote)
Ice – You sure? 😉
toonsy(Quote)
👿 👿 👿
icedog(Quote)
Thanks- didn’t know that
MDS(Quote)
Ice – I’ll take that as a no then? 😆
toonsy(Quote)
toonsy, I think this is a reat thread and one that will stimulate great debate.
As I pointed out on another thread if a club keeps selling it’s better players it will never progress. If we sell a player because he wants to go, another player will look at that and think “what am I doing here?” We’re not going to achieve anything, then he wants to leave and so on.
To start the ball rolling on the long road to success we have to put a marker down and say I don’t care whether you want to leave, we are building something here that will be a success and we cannot do it by selling good players. That will send a clear message to that player and other players in the squad – a kind of a ‘we mean business’ message. They will want to be part of it.
So in short if you sell good players it will have a terrible knock on effect for the rest of the squad and we will never progress.
It is essential we keep Tiote this summer, to send a clear message to the supporters and other players (current and new) that we are building something at this great club.
Will it happen? Not a chance. But the club will use that exact excuse that you have used in your argument, toonsy. “He wanted to leave, what could we do?”. The club bank a fortune but the squad is weaker.
The other thing worth thinking about is if we hadn’t have sold Carroll how much would Pardew have had to spend? Will that be added to Pardew’s Carroll pot too? Doubt it.
There are so many holes in the clubs reasoning behind it’s actions it’s beyond doubt there’s something more sinister at work. All in my opinion of course – feel free to disagree and debate… 😯
Stuart79(Quote)
Stuart79
Posted May 2, 2011 at 4:36 PM
“toonsy, I think this is a great thread
😯 😯 😯
toonsy(Quote)
“As I pointed out on another thread if a club keeps selling it’s better players it will never progress.”
I agree, but only if the money is not reinvested. Look at spurs- their fans flipped when they sold Berbatov and Keane, but they reinvested the money and went to the Champions League.
MDS(Quote)
I think the key thing is reinvesting. It’s all well and good selling our better players but we need to spend the cash like Spurs did, like Everton did and so on.
On keeping players here, I think much of it depends on their propensity to leave. If they really really want to go, is it wise to keep them knowing that they could be unhappy and not try their best?
toonsy(Quote)
MDS
Posted May 2, 2011 at 4:44 PM
They went out on a huge spending spree and totally revampled their squad – I cannot see the same happening here.
Also Spurs were starting from a much higher position than us when they sold Berbatov, you could argue that the fact they hadn’t sold their better players up before then helped them get to within 1 point of the top four.
Stuart79(Quote)
toonsy
Posted May 2, 2011 at 4:47 PM
Their proffesional footballers, toonsy. Competitive instinct will kick in and they will try. Also when they see things improving they will forget about not moving pretty quickly.
Stuart79(Quote)
Stuart – True, but it never quite works out like that. I don’t think it helps with Tiote saying top four or five next year as clearly it’s not going to happen. Nowt wrong with aiming for it though I guess.
toonsy(Quote)
Stu, you may be right. I’m going to give to the club the benfit of the doubt and wait to see what happens in the summer. If they don’t spend it, I’ll be the first one to agree with you
MDS(Quote)
MDS – Don’t get me wrong, I do think we’ll bring players in this summer, I just think they’ll be over shadowed by the players leaving, namely Enrique and Tiote.
I also think there’ll be a lot less made available to Pardew as should be.
But that’s just what I think. I really hope I’m wrong.
Stuart79(Quote)
MDS kind of hits the nail on the head there. I’m willing to give the club benefit of the doubt, but only becuase there is no excuse for them no to invest. If they fail then I’ll be as critical as the next man.
toonsy(Quote)
To be honest, toonsy, I’m fed up of giving Ashley the benifit of the doubt. I’d rather be pleasantly suprised.
Although he does have a habit of doing silly things, just when things are looking better.
Stuart79(Quote)
Things is Stu there is no excuse this time. There is no relegation, the wagebill is down etc etc. I think he knows he has to do something or else his position will become untenable. Not that he cares mind.
If Enrique goes then so be it, but at the very least I’d expect that cash to be reinvested aswell. Keeping hold of Tiote is the key. Enrique is after all just a left-back. A good one, but he isn’t irreplacable
toonsy(Quote)
I agree, toonsy. It’s different with Enrique, if he wants to go sell him and reinvest the cash. The fact that he’s only got one year left makes it a totally different situation. Tiote on the other hand has six years left on his contract.
Stuart79(Quote)
If the summer goes like this, i will be happy:
1-Enrique to Bayern for 12-15M.
2-Keep all other players not named Xisco or Smith
3-Spend approx 35M on new players and wages
MDS(Quote)
The top and bottom is I don’t care if all of the £35 million goes back in on transfer fees. But what would **** me off is if any more income wasn’t made available as it would be unaccounted for so there would be no reason not to let Pardew spend it
toonsy(Quote)
4- New contracts for Barton and Nolan
MDS(Quote)
MDS
Posted May 2, 2011 at 5:18 PM
3-Spend approx 35M on new players and wages
Really?
That really doesn’t leave much in the kitty for transfer fees.
Think about it like this – 3 signings on £40k per week is £2m a year over five years that would be £30m just on wages.
That would leave us £5m for transfer fees.
Stuart79(Quote)
Thing is, why give Nolan a new deal? He still has two years left at the minute so what is the rush? Ideally, maybe not next season, but we should be aiming fro better than him within two years in my opinion
toonsy(Quote)
toonsy
Posted May 2, 2011 at 5:22 PM
What would Pardew have been given in the summer if we hadn’t have sold Carroll?
Shouldn’t the Carroll money be unaccounted too?
I must admit I don’t like the idea of using transfer fee’s recived to cover salaries too. The club should be concentrating on maximising the turnover to pay salaries not robbing Peter to pay Paul.
Stuart79(Quote)
We really need to shift Smith and Xisco 🙄
toonsy(Quote)
I don’t mean it that way-
I would like 4-5 new players. All I meant was that I don’t care if he spends the whole let’s say 50M on new players coming in or 35 of it and used the remainder towards wages, the deby, improved training facilities or whatever.
I’m more concerned with what comes in versus the amount he actually spends. Big difference between signing 4 tiotes or one Owen
MDS(Quote)
^^^debt^^^
MDS(Quote)
Stuart – What I mean is that the Carroll money has always been part transfer fees part wages. Any further cash from say the sale of Enrique, would be unaccounted for so should just be handed staright to Pardew IMO.
toonsy(Quote)
MDS – You’re right, but what’s the chances of finding another four Tiotes? I wouldn’t mind like, but I cannot see it.
Stuart79(Quote)
Good article Sy. I agree with that and as you say the key is to re-invest any money in the squad . It’s difficult to keep hold of players that want to leave – Rooney (from Everton), Tevez, Berbatov, Keane, Barry all went sooner or later. I think we will keep hol dof Tiote for now and I think we will invest in the squad in the summer. I’m prepared to give Ashley the benefit of the doubt for 2 reasons:
1. This is the first time he will not have to put his hand in his own pocket to bankroll the club and pay transfer fees
2. He knows that the best chance of him getting his money back is for the Toon to be successful and playing in Europe.
As a shrewd business man (even if clueless about football matters) he knows the right thing to do for his own benefit is allow the necessary investment this summer.
3hourswasted(Quote)
toonsy
Posted May 2, 2011 at 5:31 PM
I know but before he was sold that kitty didn’t even exist, so what would Pardew have been spending if Carroll was still here?
Are we saying his budget would have been £0? Whatever it was I would expect that to be added to the Carroll money.
Stuart79(Quote)
Stuart, the age we live in it doesn’t matter if you decide to put the marker down as you say and make them stay. It very raely works, selling your big players is fine as long as you replace them. Look at tottenham and carrick/berbatov. The danger is not selling your players but replacing them for example looking back to wesat ham when they had the ferdinands,cole,lampards etc they never replaced them properly so struggled. Tottenham replaced berbatov and carrick but also used the extra money to suplement the squad and improve the whole squad not just a few key positions. Wate of time having saying three top top players surrounded by ****, better having 11 good players.
Rorycn(Quote)
3hourswasted
Posted May 2, 2011 at 5:32 PM
Unfortunately I don’t see getting into Europe as his best chance of getting his money back.
The next big thing is mobile phone streaming, that’s what all these owners are waiting for. It will be worth millions and that will increase the value of the club, not getting in the UEFA cup.
Imo Ashley is holding on until we get to the stage of mobile phone streaming and legal internet streaming – that’s the big money! He knows we only have to be in the PL to get on that gravy train.
Stuart79(Quote)
Rorycn
Posted May 2, 2011 at 5:35 PM
What’s the guarantee that you’ll be able to replace them with the same quality?
If we sell our best player it will be for alot of money – but we might be worse off if we cannot replace him with a similar quality player.
Stick with what you have and add to it, that way you are totally derisking the entire situation.
Stuart79(Quote)
When’s mobile streaming likely to happen Stuart – not heard owt about it?
3hourswasted(Quote)
Stuart – Of course we would have a budget, but it would have been out of Ashley’s pocket and added to the debt of the club, again, no doubt. This time is different IMO.
toonsy(Quote)
3hourswasted
Posted May 2, 2011 at 5:45 PM
When’s mobile streaming likely to happen Stuart – not heard owt about it?
It’s the next big thing, it will happen and it will make clubs a fortune.
Stuart79(Quote)
Tottenham didn’t replace berba and carrick with players of the same quality. But they brought in good players. They were also able to add other players. They bought modric and pavlychenklo with the berbatov money. I’m just saying selling your best player isn’t a disaster as long as you replace them with players of a decent quality to allow you to continue to compete.
Rorycn(Quote)
Doubt it’s any time soon though Stuart. SKY have just signed a new Premier League deal until 2013 for exclusive rights and I can’t see them backing off when it comes up for grabs again.
3hourswasted(Quote)
Last sentence does mostly sum it up… but toonsy im sure you wouldnt mind seeing 5under1and buying Raylor off us would you?
😆 😆
pearceet(Quote)
I dunno. I wouldn’t class Raylor as one of our better players 😉
toonsy(Quote)
Stuart- you are right about mobile streaming. The NFL started it last season and it is already widely popular and will be a real money maker once they start selling the rights to more mobile carriers.
MDS(Quote)
53- 😯 😈
SpencerTheToon(Quote)
Just seen someone on twitter say that this has been a shambolic season 😆
SpencerTheToon(Quote)
Stuart I really cant see the point of keeping a player that dosn’t want to be here, you will never get 100% out of a player that dosn’t want to be here, As we have seen with Jose it looks like he has his mind in a different place as he isn’t half the player he was. I dont know about you but I think a lower quality player that wants to be here is worth a lot more to the team than someone that dosn’t want to be here and just go’s through the motions, surely that isn’t a recipe for a succesful team, TEAM being the operative word as in all together pushing for the same target and happy to do so. So what exactly is the point of holding a player against their wish’s ?
Big Dave(Quote)
I agree with Stuart to a degree, ideally you hang onto your best players and add to them that’s the easiest way to progress. If they’re under contract and the manager wants to keep them, then we should be telling them they’re going nowhere as the club is trying to build something and needs to keep it’s best players.Of course if a ridiculous offer comes in and the club can improve by selling a player then fair enough as long as the money is used to improve the squad……….the other side of the coin is that sometimes a player can force a move and there’s only so much a club can do to hold onto an unhappy player, Benny being a prime example, I’m over the moon that he is here but he was a complete tw@t the way he forced the move and I’m under no illusion that if there’s a move he wants he may well do the same to us in the future.
richietoon(Quote)
Toonsy no harm to ye but I think Raylor would offer a lot more to the team than a ‘ Big Time Player ‘ that dosn’t really want to be here
Big Dave(Quote)
Richie do you think you could rely on someone that dosn’t want to be here ?
Big Dave(Quote)
Right now the only way for us to KEEP our better players is for the club to consistently invest in quality players every transfer window. by showing that sign of actual intent, the better players will have hope of playing for something that will get them some recognition. I think the club needs to spend about 40 million this summer if they want to keep tiote and anyone else who could be pulled away
AndrewT(Quote)
Dave…..no good keeping them if they’re unhappy, but you need to try and convince them this is the place to be and that the club has ambition and that you want them to be a part of it, isn’t that how KK worked the first time he was here?
If they still want to go then yep get rid but at least show some intent and ambition for the future 😉
richietoon(Quote)
Really? I thought you loved Raylor Toonsy!
pearceet(Quote)
Richie @ 62 spot on mate, 😉 but as for Stuart saying to keep them to set a marker it wont work and will create a bad dressing room imo and as you rightly say Regarding Benny he wasn’t happy and his club tried to hold on to him, and his club came out of that looking bad
Big Dave(Quote)
@59-Raylors a big time player and he wants to be here 🙄 😛
SpencerTheToon(Quote)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDLennzR_88
batty(Quote)
😆 Batty 😆
One of my mates had that on his phone when we were like y8 and teacher caught him playing it, got a right bolloxing 😆
SpencerTheToon(Quote)
Dave…..I think Benny came out of it looking bad to tho, how would we have reacted if Milner had done the same thing when we recalled him from Villa at the last moment?
Everytime a quality player leaves it must go through the other players minds “hang on, does this club have ambition to match my own?” We should be creating a scenario where players are happy to stay here and be apart of something………the big question is how much of a “something” does Ashley want to build? 😕
richietoon(Quote)
Batty 😀 Remember that song from school, almost 10 years old now, classic^
NewkieBrown(Quote)
Batty did you see any of the fake pics flying about FB etc of his body 😆
Big Dave(Quote)
Richie I guess we will soon know exactly how much ambition the Fat man has 😉
Big Dave(Quote)
aye dave ive been on the RIP osama pages a lot of the day ,just too pay my respects like 😉 😆 😆 😆
batty(Quote)
I think its sickening 😆
What is, I just found these vidoes taking the mick of the Munich disister, wish I had a youtube acount, ide of gave some right bollockings out
SpencerTheToon(Quote)
Dave…aye, I’m looking forward to it……with trepidation 😕 😀
richietoon(Quote)
The fact that both Tiote and Arfa were willing to sacrafice European football in the first place to come to a promoted team bodes well anyway, and if we can push on with quality signings in the summer it all bodes well for continual success. But re-players wanting to leave, well, what can you do? If Real Madrid come in for you you’ll be gone in a flash like and theres basically nothing the club or management can do about it….Liverpool is another matter, which is why if Enrique goes for 15mil to Bayern then wicked…if he also goes to liverpool then 👿
Also on Nolan, I agree with Toonsy, in two years he should be a fringe player and likely only around for morale and injury cover…still, maybe we can make some more good use out of him next year if we have the rest of the team do his running for him 😎
NewkieBrown(Quote)