There are two areas of contention. One of them, which I will look at later on in the article, is about the ambition of the club whilst the other one, which I will take a look at now, is about our wages. I’m assuming that those who are kicking up a fuss can’t really read though as they seem to be hinting at something entirely different to what Alan Pardew said.
Basically, the question Pardew was asked was about the ability to attract players over the likes of 5th placed Tottenham and 6th placed Liverpool. Here is what he said:
“I don’t think we’re anywhere near Spurs in terms of the wage bill. Theirs is double ours, so you can forget about Spurs.”
“That doesn’t mean to say we can’t compete with them on the playing pitch. On transfers, we can’t compete with their wages. We can’t compete with Liverpool’s wages. We’ve got to face that reality. We can’t.”
Now somehow this has translated into us having a wage cap that is half of what the likes of Tottenham and Liverpool pay their players. Now my eyes aren’t brilliant, but even I can’t see the words “wage cap” mentioned. I can see the words “wage bill” though, so the real story is that two teams that finished 5th and 6th have a higher wage bill than a team who is only in the second season of Premier League life. So where is the problem?
You look at the income that the two clubs in question and it far exceeds what we generate. Liverpool rake in more than double what we make each season, even without Champions League football, whilst Tottenham rake in a lot more than us – £130 million a year roughly. The best that we’ve ever done is £100 million in one season (£99.4 million back in 2008 in fact). although the last time we were in the Premier League our income was closer to £80 million.
So is it really any wonder those two clubs pay more wages than us? Also, can anyone give a credible reason why the likes of Hatem Ben Arfa and Yohan Cabaye signed for us, and why Cheik Tiote and Steven Taylor signed new deals if our wages are so derisory?
The second bone of contention seems to be regarding ambition. Once again, here is what Pardew had to say in that very same Sunday Sun article:
“Having said that about wages, we can get a top-10 finish, we can get a top-eight finish – we can, even, get a top-six finish maybe, if things went really, really well for us. That has been proven.”
“Then we need – at some point – to kick on. I think where Mike is at the moment, he wants the club to be stable. He wants to see that there’s some stability here.”
“He wants to see we can get a top ten finish next year and then, maybe, we can get him excited enough to attack the top level after that. That’s where we want to be.”
From that it has been gleaned that the club want to settle for top ten year after year, with no improvement. It’s not what Pardew himself says though is it? He is saying we can go higher. Does anybody really think that the club would bemoan the fact that we finished 8th instead of 10th? Please, have a word.
What is wrong with top ten for our second season back in the Premier League anyway? I think it’s a perfectly reasonable target and it would of course be an imporvement on last season. Isn’t that what we all want? Improvement?
I just think that sometimes people need to take a step back and realise where we are. I don’t think there is anything essentially wrong with what Alan Pardew is saying as it’s all pretty much common sense if you have the ability to look at things in a balanced way. I do question the wisdom of saying anything at all though, but then again, in black and white, the questions are there and Pardew is just responding to them.
Interestingly though, the same people that are kicking up about these comments are some of the same ones that hint that Alan Pardew talks shyte quite often, yet this time he isn’t.
When it suits eh? When it suits…..
Stuart @ 61 – That is a very lateral and uniform view. There is nothing to say that we won’t pay a player more. It;’s not as simple as saying we must pay exactly half of what Tottenham pay. As a squad in value, yes, but in isolated cases, no.
toonsy(Quote)
@3hrswasted
Where do you get this £50k a week from for Cabaye. Love to see your evidence? 🙄
Bobby Shinton number 9(Quote)
3hourswasted
Posted June 12, 2011 at 3:58 PM
‘The club are clearly having a go’. The could bid £80m for Messi but they know it wouldn’t be accepted and they’d also know that he wouldn’t join us on salaries we pay. Would you see that as having a go?
Stuart79(Quote)
@ohurley
I think you were banging your head against the wall when expecting Gervinho to arrive.
Keep banging, it won’t do you any harm! 😀
Bobby Shinton number 9(Quote)
Freddie,
Ashley appointed Keegan and Shepherd fired Robson and hired Souness, Ehhhhh??
Paul(Quote)
Cabaye joined didn’t he – on decent wages – French International, won the French title? Gervinho may still be possible and I’m sure we will pay N’Zogbia a nice wedge and have offered Enrique a great deal.
So like I said you think that bidding for players like that is just a smoke screen and there’s no real intent. OK right 😀
3hourswasted(Quote)
Freddie Shepherd
Posted June 12, 2011 at 4:01 PM
“I can remember freddie Shepherd appointing bobby roson as manager, who the hell has Ashley appointed of any conseqence. Go canny on Freddie I had a lot of pleasure watching the Toon during his years at the club”
I can remember Shepherd’s decision forcing Keegan out first time around when NUFC changed to a PLC. I remember Shepherd appointing Dalglish, Souness, Roeder, Gullit. I remember Sheoherd took over a club that was second in the league with £100 million in the bank. I remember Shepherd walking away from Newcastle having earned £60 million and leaving the club saddled with debt and ALL future income spent aswell as losing £30 million a year. I remember Shepherd and his cohorts calling us all mugs for buying overpriced replica shirts.
But yes he was a saint 🙄
Some of my best Toon years came before Shepherd when we really were challenging under Sir John Hall.
toonsy(Quote)
It is obvious to me that NUFC will be better off in the next 5-10 year than most clubs in the league! The way to run a club is to include players wages in the cost of buying them, which is exactly what the fat controller is doing! We’re not likely to see the club spend 30mil, n I hope they don’t to be honest! We’ll only end up back where we were, paying stupid wages to players who aren’t worth it n dont give a flying f**k bout our club! (M. Owen) If players want to leave, let them, sell them now rather than drag it out and let them leave for free!!!! Makes no sense! We have a good foundation in the squad we have and have some fantastic talent (Vukic, lualua, sammy Ameobi, ferguson etc etc) coming through the ranks! Break them in gently and let them gain experience from the good players we have now, we don’t need to spend stupid amounts of money to compete! A couple of decent strikers and maybe a right back should be suffice!
S114nka(Quote)
On more positiv note it looks likely that we’ll sign Demba Ba.
He looked ok last season and seeing as though he’s on a free that would release more funds to bring in other players.
Still I would like us to get a better, younger and more reliable striker too.
Stuart79(Quote)
Bobby Shinton number 9
Posted June 12, 2011 at 3:58 PM
@toonsy
“Proper hissy fit you’ve had.”
Not really. Just pointing out the facts. Not my fault some of you ******* can’t deal with them is it?
I’m still waiting to hear just how we got Cabaye and Ben Arfa (both players who were going to be playing in the Champions League) and managed to resign Taylor and Tiote whilst paying peanuts 😆 😆 😆
toonsy(Quote)
Some of my best Toon years came before Shepherd when we really were challenging under Sir John Hall.
sir john is just as much to blame asFFS toonsy,
hitman(Quote)
toonsy
Posted June 12, 2011 at 4:07 PM
Where’s this £100m in the bank come from?
We were spending money like there was no tomorrow back then – did it never leave our account?
Stuart79(Quote)
Stu- so you’re saying that in order to run a successful business you need to whittle away your own personal savings to supplement the business? Hmm, maybe I should try that with a credit card to increase my quality of life… if we can be self-sustainable, we can GROW. Doesn’t take a genius to figure that out…
Moreno- I empathize with those things, man. The Keegan fiasco was a disaster in part because MA was learning the game and made some serious mistakes in the beginning, but ALSO because Keegan is an arrogant hothead with an abundance of self-entitlement. Brilliant manager and legendary player, but I wonder if I’d enjoy having a beer with him… As for the sale of Carroll, you’d have done it too. I’d bet my bottom dollar you’d have done it too if you were in his shoes. The only real arguments to support keeping him are emotional arguments. Business don’t last long if their decisions are based on emotional arguments. See- if it was Nile Ranger instead of Judas in that very same position (assuming he wasn’t a thug and had talent), we’d ALL be hailing it as the best business decision of the 21st century. Why? Because he’s not a local lad. The fact that AC is from Gateshead makes his departure an emotional event, and clouds people’s judgement to see the facts. All 35 million of them. Oh and yeah- he put in a transfer request.
OHurley(Quote)
Freddie…the path to relegation started under shepherd!
witters(Quote)
Freddy Shepherd
We were 1 or 2 seasons away from doing a Peter Ridsdale at Leeds under FFS. He knew it and jumped ship, lining his pockets in the process. Come on don’t talk bulls##t! For every good decision there was about 3 poor ones; like anybody who’s ever held power at NUFC.
DJG(Quote)
@3hours
That’s 3hours and two posts wasted. You fail to give me the evidence that Cabaye is on £50k per week.
Plucked out of mid air? 😆
Bobby Shinton number 9(Quote)
Isn’t 1st place in the top 10 anymore then? 😉
richietoon(Quote)
S114nka @83
Agreed.
DJG(Quote)
What`s our current financial situation then Toonsy? The fat man has taken us for a ride and at least during Fred`s day we had some class acts.
Freddie Shepherd(Quote)
Bobby….was that you I saw getting Gervinho on the new Toon top earlier? 😀
richietoon(Quote)
arnt we in more debt now than when under FFS and sir john
hitman(Quote)
OH – “Business don’t last long if their decisions are based on emotional arguments”
Kind of links to what I am saying about fans opinions doesn’t it?
Our arguments are generally from an emotional point of view. We have an emotional attachment with the club as fans, that’s why I am saying I empathise with people feeling negative about the regime after what has happened.
Moreno(Quote)
this is what its all aboot, it would be ***** on here if we all agreed 😆
hitman(Quote)
Bullsh!t #9-
Go ****** a mackem trollop.
OHurley(Quote)
Freddy Shepherd took millions out of the club and stashed it in his massive trouser press, at least so far Ashley has only put his OWN money into the club.
DJG(Quote)
@toonsy
Please give me a laugh again and estimate what you believe Cabaye and HBA are on per week?
Hold on, I’ll just have a seat in case I fall over laughing.
I’m waiting. 😆
Bobby Shinton number 9(Quote)
But Bobby…nor have you proven that Cabaye isnt on £50k a week and you never will! 😉
witters(Quote)
Hitman…you are correct! The reason…Shepherd & Hall
witters(Quote)
@witters
I can’t prove there’s not a God but I know there’s not.
Bobby Shinton number 9(Quote)
Moreno-
Good point, mate. I’m no exception. I scream, holler, and jump around when the Toon scores and find myself often listening to Blaydon Races and being filled with pride to love such an amazing football club with well over 100 years of tradition and the best fans in the world. I just try to put that aside when thinking about the business behind the club. Some of us don’t. Thanks to you and Toonsy and all the others of us who do 🙂
OHurley(Quote)
hitman @ 98
Don’t think I would bother coming on if everyone agreed all the time, couldn’t deal with it!!!
Moreno(Quote)
OK Bobby, what will Ba’s wages be if he signs. I tell you now it won’t be peanuts or he’ll just go somewhere else!
DJG(Quote)
The only debt we have is an interest free loan payable to Ashley.
Nothing that can jeopardize the future of the club.
Paul(Quote)
Stuart – http://www.nufc-finances.org.uk/
Have a mooch through that. It’s got some cracking info on it if you;re interested in the finances of NUFC over the years.
toonsy(Quote)
What money has the fat man put into the club? Go to the Deloitte Touche report we over £200 million in debt. Don`t be taken in DJG, we are in a worse financial postion now than what we have ever been FACT!
Freddie Shepherd(Quote)
Bullsh!te Number 9-
Why are you arguing about God now? Trying to turn this footy blog into a forum in which to debate Metaphysics? Geez, go take a Modern Philosophy course FFS.
OHurley(Quote)
OHurley
Posted June 12, 2011 at 4:11 PM
Football is not like a normal business though. To succeed you need to invest and keep investing to maintain that standard. But also football clubs (all bar a couple) just don’t turn enough of a profit to be able to afford the type of players that improves you under normal circumstances. Ok people will talk about Tiote but he’s not the norm he’s the exception.
Stuart79(Quote)
@ohurley
Temper temper. 😯
Truth hurts sometimes but you must learn to deal with it better. 😆
Bobby Shinton number 9(Quote)
I really couldn’t give a **** what we pay people come 3pm on Saturday, I just want to watch us give 100% and if that’s what we do then fine.
(providing we are playing at the afore mentioned day and time :grin:)
Moreno(Quote)
@bobby…so stop asking for proof off every fcuker else then!! 😉
witters(Quote)
Bobby Shinton number 9
Posted June 12, 2011 at 4:20 PM
“Please give me a laugh again and estimate what you believe Cabaye and HBA are on per week?”
Answering a question by asking a question 🙄 The sign of a man who hasn’t got a fooking clue how to answer something 😆
So please tell me, do you think Ben Arfa an Cabaye, who have both come from Champions League bound clubs, have come here for peanuts? Do you think Steven Taylor has taken a wage CUT to sign a new deal? Do you think Tiote is on peanuts?
toonsy(Quote)
Freddie-
Link to that D&T report, please?
OHurley(Quote)
HANDBAGS 😆
hitman(Quote)
@Moreno
Don’t we all but that’s hardly the point is it.
Wages are very important and you can generally tell, with the odd exception, who pays the best wages.
Look down the league from the top and the position is there and there abouts the ranking wage structure.
We are from 8th to 14th best wage earners.
Bobby Shinton number 9(Quote)
Freddie Shepherd
Posted June 12, 2011 at 4:24 PM
“What money has the fat man put into the club? Go to the Deloitte Touche report we over £200 million in debt. Don`t be taken in DJG, we are in a worse financial postion now than what we have ever been FACT!”
All of which is non-interest bearing, and of that only (only 😆 ) half of it is running cost debt. The other is in the name of a different company which was actually used to buy NUFC in the first place. It;s been there since day one, yet only now when people moan it gets brought up……
Wonder why?
toonsy(Quote)
Paul
Posted June 12, 2011 at 4:23 PM
So he doesn’t want that back then, does he? Or if he decides one day that he wants it all back will that not damage the club?
I’m not saying he’ll do it, but debt is debt.
Stuart79(Quote)
‘This site stopped being actively maintained when Mike Ashley took over the club. The hope was that the financial mismanagement that had been the hallmark of the way Freddie Shepherd ran the club had come to an end.
The subsequent mess of the relegation season has prompted this update.
No one should ever underestimate the mess that Shepherd left the club in. This does not excuse anything Mike Ashley may, or may not have done subsequently.’
Doesn’t say much for Shepherd does it. 😕
DJG(Quote)
Bobby,
“Don’t we all but that’s hardly the point is it.”
Well it is and it isn’t.
If we have people on the field who want to play for NUFC and give 100%, I (personally) don’t really care what we pay them. It’s the players who don’t give it all and get paid fortunes I can’t abide by, And they are out there.
Moreno(Quote)
Stu @121
Has he got a daughter? Maybe we could ask him for one favour, and one favour only on the day of her wedding….to write off the debt!
Moreno(Quote)
my thing is that AP seems to be mixing up two things in one sentence toonsy and it contradicts itself – he says:
“I don’t think we’re anywhere near Spurs in terms of the wage bill. Theirs is double ours, so you can forget about Spurs.”
Now what the hell does that mean cos if we are to take it the way you suggest AP is saying that SPURS wage bill is double what ours is so therefore we cant not compete with them, so forget it. Now forgive me for being daft.. but if spurs wage bill is already double what ours is thats the very reason we can compete…..cos ours is so low we have more roon to manourve and they are near their ceiling now.
What AP means is spurs will pay twice as high as us in salaries so we cant compete so forget it…. otherwise the whole statement makes no sense.. do you agree toonsy Ap then confirms what i think he means by then saying :
On transfers, we can’t compete with their wages. We can’t compete with Liverpool’s wages. We’ve got to face that reality. We can’t.”
The funniest thing he said was that Ashley needs to see stability!!! you got to be kidding me…. try not sacking four managers in one season then fat boy! and another one for no reason when we were 11th in the PREM, replacing him with ‘a more prem ezperienced manager” so we finished 12th. Hey i am all for stability but at the end of the day..talk is cheap and we get far to much of that and not enouhg actions.
On a final note: toonsy, your blog is great, its the best one around at the minute and i am really trying to be on the fence alot these days and say good things when i think its deserved and give our owners **** when i also think its deserved too. The one thing that bugs me slightly and i was suprised to hear you say it – AP says it all the time… and that is ‘we did well for a team in first season in the prem”. That has to be the most ar5e cake statement in the world. Why not say, we have been in the prem for 16 out of 17 years??? we are not new to this prem malarky and we are a full bloodded prem team that should never have gone down in first place.
craig chisholm(Quote)
I mean can any of us say they are bothered if Leon Best is payed 10k or 30k ? I don’t, all I care about is him scoring goals.
Cabaye could be getting 30k or 50k for all I care, as long as he plays well and put the graft in….I couldn’t care less.
I hold Tiote in as much regard now as I did his previous contract ( a few months ago) He is getting paid more…..do I care? Nope. Just keep playing well son.
Moreno(Quote)
well said craig
hitman(Quote)
craig chisholm
Posted June 12, 2011 at 4:35 PM
Exactly what I have been saying.
Stuart79(Quote)
@bobby
Look down the league from the top and the position is there and there abouts the ranking wage structure.
Didn’t we get relegated with the 6th highest wage bill though! That shows how poorly the club was being run in terms of not getting value for money.
DJG(Quote)
lets do some simple math. club a has 5 players @ 60Kpw with the rest of the team on £50kpw. then has 10 squad players @ £30kpw and 10 younger players @ £10kpw total 31 players @ £1mpw
Club b has whole 1st team and bench 15 players @£70kpw, and another 15 Squad players @ £50kpw. Again 10 younger players @ £10pw. Total 40 players @ £2mpw. twice the wage bill. Wage cap is only £10kpw higher. Please note that these figures are representative only and other clubs exist.
Premandup(Quote)
no one cared aboot club finance till ashley came along,this is just a clever way for ashley to do things on the cheap,because he has portrayed the club in financal melt down.right or wrong its good cover to do things on the cheap 😉
hitman(Quote)
Brum looking for new manager…Chrissy Hughton anyone?
Moreno(Quote)
…And Forest.
Stuart79(Quote)
bobby you want proof tat cabaye is on 50k a week. Where is your proof we have a wage cap?
johno toon(Quote)
Moreno,
so are we sayingthe carroll deal was a bad one. behave at £35million anyone with an ounce of sense would have done the deal. local lad etc but never worth anywhere near £35million.
point 2 keegan, as you say a legend as a player and manager 1st time round. but consider the money spent and still we didnt win anything, i would suggest that given the biggest cheque book a few could have doen the job. his record otherwise doesnt stand up! won nothing anywhere ! he should never have been offered the job second time , that was the mistake! you can’t live on past glories! not seen a queue to take him on since, and how much did we end up paying him!
davvruss(Quote)
craig
It’s easy to pick holes in things but we were actually 2 minutes away from finishing 9th, and without the top scorer from the start of the season that C.H had.
DJG(Quote)
Craig – Less of the **** kissing buddy 😉
I’ve never once stopped anyone having an opinions, so if you want to let rip then let rip. I will, as always, argue back if I feel like it though, which some people can’t handle and construe it as me trying to force a view, but they are rapidly diminishing in number as they gradually see they were talking **** 😆
Obviously when people start slagging me off the I’ll get annoyed. Doesn’t everyone?
On the thread, I agree. I think what Pardew said can be read in different ways to suit really, although i obviously think it means one thing whilst others think the other. That’s what it’s all about though init 😉
toonsy(Quote)
Stuart – Steve McLaren for Forest 😉
toonsy(Quote)
“so are we sayingthe carroll deal was a bad one. behave at £35million anyone with an ounce of sense would have done the deal. local lad etc but never worth anywhere near £35million.”
Disagree.
He will be England’s number 9 for many years and should have been ours for 10 years. Can’t put a price on a local, talismanic local lad in the number 9 shirt.
Liverpool will look back in 5 years and say money well spent.
He is to blame though, my gripe is with him. Ashley doesn’t care about the above statement, Carroll should have though
Moreno(Quote)
We’ve already asked Bobby that Johno…he just starts going on about God n that…I think he’s losing it 😉
witters(Quote)
@toonsy
I estimate Tiote , Cabaye, HBA to be on a wage between, £35-£45k per week. No more.
Now let’s here your estimate. ❓
Bobby Shinton number 9(Quote)
“point 2 keegan, as you say a legend as a player and manager 1st time round. but consider the money spent and still we didnt win anything, i would suggest that given the biggest cheque book a few could have doen the job. his record otherwise doesnt stand up! won nothing anywhere ”
My best memories of the club were under his leadership. Best time I remember as a toon fan….don’t care how much it cost the chairman….I follow the club for my own pleasure.
Moreno(Quote)
I will be interested to see what C.H does at another club, (if he gets another job as a manager 😕 ) and to see if he is such a good manager as some people say. Personally I think he was tactically poor and allowed factions to create in the dressing room. Yes well done to getting us promoted, but he did have the best and highest paid side in the league due to Ashley one way or another.
DJG(Quote)
In fact Johno Toon….I think we might be witnessing the first nufcblog breakdown 😆
witters(Quote)
Bobby Shinton Number 9 is doing a David Icke right in front of our eyes!! 😆
witters(Quote)
@Craig
Well done son, Toonsy is backing right down now. 😆
Bobby Shinton number 9(Quote)
I must say I’m surprised Hughton hasn’t been given another job. Some on the other blog were thinking he’s the new Fergie.
Stuart79(Quote)
davvruss @ 135
You’ll upset Batty with that comment. 😆
DJG(Quote)
Bobby – Do you want some more reflection time?
toonsy(Quote)
Stu @ 147 – 😆 😆 😆
toonsy(Quote)