So I thought I’d have a go at thinking about what makes a big club. What makes a big club club in any case? And has the definition of a big club been clouded by the sudden influx of money into the modern game? I’ve decided to stick to the Premier League for now in an attempt to try and work this out.
Personally I think that money talks so I thought of a few criteria to go along with it. The first one is global brand recognition. This important because it adds to the value of the club, and reflects what it says on the tin. These figures reflect the clubs worldwide fan base. These figures were posted recently and discussed so I’ll keep short and sweet.
Manchester United are in a league of their own with a “brand value” estimated at £853m, and recent signing Kagawa won’t harm that as they look to bolster their reputation in the vast Far Eastern market.
Then there are three clubs between £350m and £400m Chelsea, Arsenal and then Liverpool. I think Liverpool are dropping down and may well have trouble holding onto 4th with Manchester City moving rapidly up to just over £300m. There is then a gap to Spurs at just over £200m
Finally we get down to Aston Villa and Newcastle who apparently have a “brand value” of nearly £90m each.
This sort of explains why pre-season tours are arranged to grow our global presence. Of course the other factor here is recent success.
I’m looking at both the short term and medium term here. The Premier league table aggregated over the last 20 years shows that again Manchester United are in a class of their own with 1663 points. Then we have Arsenal with 1449, Chelsea with 1402, Liverpool with 1334 then a gap to Villa who have 1089 points, Spurs with 1086, Everton with 1034 and Newcastle with 1017. With Blackburn dropping out there is a gap down to City with 784 points.
Looking at the last two years Manchester United have managed 169pts, City 160, Arsenal 138, Chelsea 135, Spurs 131, Then Newcastle on 111. Liverpool and Everton are on 110 with Fulham the only other club managing over 100 points.
Looking at appearances in Europe it is clear how the top of the Premier League has been dominated by a handful of clubs, with only the Europa League providing the rest with a chance to showcase their talents in Europe.
I think it is interesting to look at stadium size and local fanbase. The stadiums were built at a time of relative success for the team otherwise they could not have afforded to do so and the size gives an idea of how much local support is expected. Only three clubs have ground capacity exceeding 50,000 and that is Manchester United (75,811) Arsenal (60,361) and Newcastle (52,387). Then we have clubs with 40k+ in descending order, Sunderland, Manchester City, Liverpool, Aston Villa, Chelsea and Everton.
Lastly I thought I’d have a look at turnover and owners. After all in “soccernomics” there is a correlation between the clubs wage bill and it’s success. There being a much lower correlation between squad cost and success.
Under the new Fair Play rules the idea is to limit the wage bill to ensure that it is controlled by turnover rather than how deep the owners pockets are, but how successful that is going to be is open to debate. Also turnover is again heavily dependant upon success. Champions League football is worth say £40m per year. So gaining success and then planning for it to continue is fatal, ask Leeds or Portsmouth.
It is clear that owners are willing to gamble with success, but not many can afford to do so. American ownership does not look to do so it appears.
So where does that leave us. The Manchester clubs look secure. United, despite their debt, have a massive global brand, and turnover to support their business model, whilst City have very deep pockets and are looking like they will have the prolonged success necessary to avoid the pitfalls of overreaching themselves. Arsenal and Chelsea have the potential to remain big clubs, especially if Chelsea build a new stadium. Spurs and Liverpool are at a crux. Neither have the stadiums, and both would be vulnerable to lack of success. Neither have owners with deep pockets and both could see their global brand falling. Villa have already fallen and unless their new manager can turn them round they will have a long way back up. The two North Eastern clubs both have tremendous potential, but the odd successful season here of there is not enough to break them into the super club level.
Unfortunately it looks as if the Champions League places are Manchester United’s, Manchester City’s, Chelsea’s and Arsenal’s to lose. Much as Spurs and Liverpool would like to see themselves as one of the big four they do not have the resources to shift them and unless their business model is based on Europa League football they are putting themselves in danger. Villa, Newcastle, Sunderland and Everton are all big clubs however none of them have the global brands, the finances or the current success to build on.
A few years of cup runs and maybe the Europa League could provide the momentum to change that and Newcastle have promised much in the last season. But Even a few years of success will not establish you, as Sir Bobby Robson found out to his cost.
PREM was only jokeing in regard to greed 😉
icedog(Quote)
Tez >>> as for big teams look at the ones who have never been relegated from the premiership, only 7 can boast such a record.<<< 😆 😆 😆 u could of worded it better 😉
batty(Quote)
Will be interested to see how Italy and France do after recent years. I think at least one of them will get quite far.
DJG(Quote)
Batty…that’s very Childish….but I’ll raise you Swansea 😆
richietoon(Quote)
Have Stoke seriously never been relegated from the PL? 😯 For a team that constantly flirts with the bottom 3 and play **** football that’s amazing.
Andymag(Quote)
chris your right they could take our players but would have to pay top dollar 😉 but you havent got that problem being a pool fan as your players are mostey ***** 🙂 35 million 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆 😆
batty(Quote)
rich 😉
batty(Quote)
Andy..aye but they’ve only been it it 4 years or so 😉
richietoon(Quote)
Richietoon
I see your point mate, yes these clubs would be included and to a cetain degree you would put them in, a couple have a very big following, success breeds a brand and bare in mind there was no global football when these trophies were won. There was no inrenet, easy access to game coverage, global sponsorship etc. If these clubs had the opportunity at the time, would we be saying that the likes of Chelsea would have been bigger than Leeds, no so sure mate. This is the difference now, the likes of Man City and Chelsea have been very fortunate to come on the scene when a ridiculous amount of money has been thrown at them. Dont know how old you are but I remember 48000 at Villa park for a third division game and no doubt gates similar at Newcastle, if this happened now it would be all over the media etc. Therefore growing the brand. Which is why I say it is all about trophies for me as this day and age is all misconstrude. How big do you think some of these teams could have been with success and global branding regardless of how many turn up on a wet wednesday night. Thats why Man U Liverpool & Aresenal are as big as they are regular winners of trophies regardless of importance to you or I. I think Liverpool have been in decline for a number of seasons to be honest however, the difference we went to wembly twice recently, beaten by Man U beaten by Chelsea, Liverpool poor season win the League Cup.
Villa until Chelsea winning there 2 trophies this year were 4th on the number of trophies won, Chelsea with all the money thrown at them have overtaken Villa with success since 2001, with next to nothing befoer that. Bigger than Villa? I dont think so but the medias constant promotion of Chelsea over the years and you can see the effect it has on peoples thinking. But I still retain Man U Arsenal Liverpool are the biggest clubs. Clubs have the potential for bigger stadia etc Spurs, fanbase in uk is a lot more than Chelsea.Spurs have a great history but but until they get back to winning trophies on a consistent basis and surpass Chelsea now they will always be regarded a smaller club by the media. You only have to hear Talks….e now about the Lambert appointment that there is no difference in us and Norwich, this is down to league position, no mention of previous history, trophies,fanbase, because to them its all irrelevent. I was praying you would knock one of them out of the chumps league, the media nad rightly so recognised your success last year, but start slow next year and you will be fogottten as quickly and Liverpool finishing 8th will get more coverage.
Only way to win and not be ignored is win trophies. a distant dream for most of us now mate
AstonVilla64(Quote)
4-6-0 Spain vs 3-5-2 italy. WHOAH. #Spain vs #Italy
GO ITALY. 😈
Italian football style is the direct curse of spanish football.
whooo.
AngelOfDeath(Quote)
I would say Bolton were, if not a ‘big club’, an established prem club. They had been in the prem for a while and had a strong finish the Sturridge season. Just goes to show, even a club like that are one season away from getting flushed down the toilet. 😕
DJG(Quote)
We may not have massive global support but we’re the second team for many across Britain and around the World. Living in Scotland I’ve seen many ‘true’ supporters of many English clubs, usually Man U, Arsenal or Liverpool with a few supporting Chelsea/City, but the club that most people say are their second club is Newcastle United, my boss at work is one of them, a Hearts supporter that also follows the fortunes of Newcastle and has done so for over a decade, and I’ve met many like him both in Scotland and on my frequent trips down south. I have yet to meet anyone who’s second club is Liverpool as most hate them. Also our central European brand name is getting bigger with the Dutch and the French beginning to follow us because we have and our continuing to look at their players.
Andymag(Quote)
I forgot to mention the African contingent which is increasingly growing, following us with the Dembas and Tiote. It may not mean much financially but being acknowledged by fans around the world shows we are a big club.
Rich
Oh yeah 😳 😆
Andymag(Quote)
In regards to Villa and Newcastle , I think we are both big clubs but there are bigger clubs out there. Simple as that
Liverpool will always be a big club due to their success in the 70’s and 80’s but at present they remind of us before we went down. Fans have too much of a say and they know f**k all , paying well over the odds for players who are not good enough , been over reliant on an aging star who won’t be able to carry the team forever. Looking from the outside in Liverpool have a lot of problems and Im not sure rodgers is the man to solve them.
Johno Toon(Quote)
Johno
Interesting look at it, we went through a few managers as well which is what I can see happening at Liverpool, Rodgers can’t last he’s their Allerdyce.
Andymag(Quote)
batty
yeah we may of paid 35 mill for carrol and hadnt started to pay off till end of the season but we can afford to make theese mistakes you cant, are you saying buying a flop stops you being a big club look at our past 10 years weve had loads of flops morientes, keane and aqualani to name a few but so have man u, chelsea and man city its the fact we can continue to make theese mistakes that makes us a big club
chris(Quote)
AV64…Agree with that mate, short term I’d rather win the league cup than 4th place and UCL qualifiers….long term maybe UCL helps attract better players, more money etc which helps you compete with the “big boys”, that said though we’ve had CL footy fairly recently and still have **** all to show for it, great memories apart.
I’m knocking on a bit but don’t think I’m as old as you 😉
Reet, time to watch wor lass’s team in the Euros 😕
richietoon(Quote)
Chris
Not when the majority of your signings are flops, that’s why you finished so low, the fact that you ARE a big club kept you from dropping any lower than you did.
Andymag(Quote)
ANDYMAG
dont get me wrong i like newcastle i think they are the only team who should be really proud of last season man city bought the title man u got beat by their rivals chelsea still underperformed in the league and as for my team liverpool worst season possible finishing below everton, but that dont make you a big club people may like newcastle but they wouldnt miss their own team to watch newcastle or buy any merchindise really so it unfortunatly doesnt make you a big club just because your liked by many it doesnt help pay the high wages required to stay in topflight long term,
chris(Quote)
Chris
That’s what I’m saying, being people’s second club may not get us the money to buy Ronaldo but being acknowledged world-wide when many teams don’t makes us a big club.
Andymag(Quote)
Wow Balotelli is ****!
Andymag(Quote)
If villa had aright foot he’d have 2 goals already. Good match this. Up the Irish later on
MDS(Quote)
ANDYMAG
yeah but we ended up spending less than 70 mill after the sale of torres and getting three quality additions in suarez, ENRIQUE, downing (will play much better under rodgers style guarateed) and we finished so low due to suarez’s suspesion and lack of a pre season training due to south america cup, andy’s lack of fitness because your medical and physio staff let him go to pot then we got him recovered but not match fit in any way, and our previous player of the year lucas being injured so early on in the season an being out ofr the rest and dalglish must take some blame for lack of attacking formation or foward planed plays, defensively we did miles better than nufc but we were miles of your attacking which as a fan i’d rather see the all out attack play newcastle play, but its a dangerous set up as if your strikers start misfiring as happens to all your left with nothing we still scraped 7th without any sort of real counter attacking threat most of the season, were would newcastle of been?
chris(Quote)
Chris
If you remember that we had the best defensive record in the PL until November when one of our main CBs (S.Taylor) was out injured (whole season), after that we had real defensive troubles and at one point had two very small fullbacks playing at CB. Come next season we’ll have our defence sorted and will have replacements for anyone who leaves, you’ll be relying on your expensive buys to come good and your other new signings (who will also cost a lot) to settle which they seem to have trouble doing at your club. Carroll seemed to be scoring fine when at us, you can’t blame us for him being **** as he wasn’t as fond of the drink as he was when he went to the pool where he drowned out his misery at leaving his home club. Enrique was not good last season he was unbelievably average and as we NU fans know was because he didn’t have gutierrez to cover him. Downing was **** last season and will be only margainly better this season.
Andymag(Quote)
Rodgers will not be able to amend Downing’s total shitness. He may actually get an assist for you in the league next season, but not much else.
In fact, I don’t think Rodgers will be planning on using Downing very much. Not his style of play. Might even get sold, which I think would be a massive relief to Liverpool fans, even if you will end up selling at a huge loss
AndrewT(Quote)
Liverpool “scraped” 8th not 7th 😉
richietoon(Quote)
Prem, Wow you’ve really stirred up a hornets nest here mate with this article.
Right first up, Chris @8 You don’t get out much do you.
G.p@10 ,I don’t think any Toon fan has said we are a big club .The question posed by Prem was ‘so who are these big clubs’ ,try understanding what you read.
King Kenny @11 The point is ,that history is all you have at the moment .
Red John @18 Global fanbase is down to many things not just success. It’s interesting that both Liverpool and Man utd wear red and share huge followings in the far East ,Red is considered very lucky over there ,a fact not lost on the current owners of Swansea city ,hence the strip change of colour .The owners even pointing out that this was done to appeal to the far East market.I’m not saying it’s the reason they follow you but will play some part.
Malachyjac@41. Alright pal,calm down 😉
Moochere@14- Great post that.
Very interesting that we have so many Villa and Liverpool fans on here today,seems like both their poor seasons have really got to them . Liverpool are in serious decline and I think a lot fans at other clubs dislike them after the problems with Suarez this season ,the whole episode left a nasty taste in the mouth and did great harm to a once proud club.I notice no one else has mentioned the elephant in the room .well now I have so there it is. Wonder what your world wide fan base made of that little episode.
As for Villa ,never really give them a second thought tbh ,just don’t see them as anything special . 😉
kimtoon(Quote)
****** hell and they call us deluded , 😆 😆 reckon we would of finished 3rd easy if taylor hadnt got injured and didnt lose ba and tiote in jan to acon 😉
batty(Quote)
ffs downing quality Green van time 😆 😆 😆
batty(Quote)
Just a question. I wonder if Bill Shankly had joined Sheffield Wednesday instead of Liverpool we might see their respective fortunes reversed. I wonder if in 20 years people refer to Pardew as the founder of the geordie dynasty. Maybe Rodgers will turn round Liverpools fortunes. Who knows who the next big thing will be. Personally as I said I think that money counts and those that have can throw it at the wall in the hope that some sticks.
premandup(Quote)
That’s right Prem. Clubs with real money can afford mistakes whereas our purchasing mistakes got us relegated. Shame that ffp wont fix that
MDS(Quote)
BATTY@103 a normal daglish signing **** 😉
icedog(Quote)
Prem ,That’s the real issue here, forget history ,fan base and club size ,these once ‘Big Clubs’ are seriously worried that they ain’t got a hope in hell of winning the PL ever cause the financle playing field is no longer level ,if it ever was . Citeh and Chelski hold all the cards ,Man u ,Pool ,**** and Spurs got no where near the clout of those two, finance wise. There’s a lot of jealousy out there , but most Toon fans are realistic ,in fact we are getting quite proud of our penny wise ways as when it all goes tits up ,and it will one day ,we will be one of the few left standing.
kimtoon(Quote)
see the usual moaning so and so’s are on here =D
have a good weekend boyz 😎
ice pup(Quote)
don’t worry about big clubs, Newcastle fans should just look forward to their 44th consecutive year of not winning a trophy (w3orth winning).
your fairs cup was won before Neil Armstrong set foot on the moon
carry on dreaming you maggie muppets
capitano(Quote)
Just an acknowledgment of Toonsy’s fine work turning my garbled mess into a readable article. Many Thanks as usual.
premandup(Quote)
Ice…LPools mistake was trusting the rebuilding of their club to a dinosaur like daglish who still thinks big money English signings are the forward.
MDS(Quote)
“Way” forward
MDS(Quote)
yawn someone fishing again
ice pup(Quote)
MDS his biggest problem is he has nee idea how to “blend”players imo
icedog(Quote)
big dave told me your opinions worth as much as gordon stachens but i’m not one to cause ***** like
ice pup(Quote)
Premandup – great article mate and really struck up a debate.
It’s good to read fans of other clubs views as well (well the valid ones anyway)
It seems be definition that a ‘big club’ is a rich club. Either financially rich or rich with a history of success. I am Newcastle through and through, whether they were PL or 2nd division I love the club and my history with it, but by definition we are not a ‘big club’.
Liverpool fans bang on about history but that success in the 70’s is what built their worldwide fan base, but the truth is (and you all know my hatred of Liverpool – so I’m pained to say this) they have won more in the 10yrs than we have in our history. Winning things builds your fan base, which in turn increases the money the brand (or club) makes. Larger companies want to be associated with the brand and will pay more money for that, you attract bigger player who contribute to greater shirt sales worldwide.
For example, I work just outside of Newcastle, yet I work with, Newcastle, Sunderland, Liverpool, Chelsea and Man Utd fans. We were all born and grew up in and around Newcastle area so I understand Sunderland fans but the rest have simply followed the teams that were successful as they grew up. The couple who live next door have 2 teenage boys, the older one has Chelsea shirts, the younger Man City shirts and both have Barca shirts, neither have Sunderland or Toon tops. Of their friends there is ONE toon fan and he gets the **** taken. One a recent holiday, I was the only toon fans amongst many Liverpool, Chelsea and City fans.
We have a board at the moment who seem to have a long term plan to raise the profile of the club, but it will take time and some controversy (stadium name) and may still not work. But MA will keep trying as raising the profile of NUFC raises the profile of SD. But without a couple of Billion quid to spend or that 10-20yrs worth of regularly winning trophies and success we will never be seen as a ‘big club’ …. but that’s ok, coz I will always love NUFC forever.
Sharpy17(Quote)
Capitano@109, Wow ,you really must of spent ages on that insult ,well done ,we’ve never heard that one befor . 🙄
kimtoon(Quote)
Newcastle do have the ability to become a big club someday. However, as things stand right now, it could take another decade before that’s realized.
Here’s hoping!
AndrewT(Quote)
PUP your very poor at fishing,stick to boats 😉
icedog(Quote)
CHRIS June 10, 2012 at 17:20
‘andy’s lack of fitness because your medical and physio staff let him go to pot then we got him recovered but not match fit in any way’
Er… what about your **** team that creates no chances for him. I don’t watch many Liverpool games but I watched the cup final and he was your best player by a country mile. Lets see how he does for England.
DJG(Quote)
It’s wierd…but every time Gerrard gets interviewed on the telly, I feel obliged to go outside and check that the wheels are still on me car! 😉
UTD111(Quote)
UTD111 @121
If they are still playing him at 32 and with loads of injuries there must be nobody else. He’s second to every ball these days. Never mind check your car, if he plays it will be ‘three wheels on the wagon’. 😛
DJG(Quote)
Would love to see ROI win and top the group tonight , after that result they gotta go for it.
kimtoon(Quote)
I don’t, I hope Duff scores an own goal. 😈
DJG(Quote)
I thought Italy’s defense was fantastic as usual.
DJG(Quote)
Djg- agree re: Italy. De Rossi was motm for me.
Disagree re: Ireland. Cmon Ireland!
MDS(Quote)
ANDYMAG @96
enrique had a good season in my opinion, downing also played well to me it seemed them two were constantly countering well up the left but having to hold the ball up for too long waiting for options our tactics of trying to keep posesion over all out goal getting gets in the way of these players thats why your strikers and and carrol get goals at newcastle our play style has been to find a guranteed pass over the chance cross and lobbed through balls leading to most our shots being taken outside the box with the opponents area barracked up leading too us hitting the wood work and there players more than getting goals hopefully rodgers will get rid of this part of our game.
chris(Quote)
Jez you would easily know jeremy kyle isn’t on at the weekends, so they all decide to come on here with their *****.
Andymag you had Chris in your pocket there lad, but I hope you never had any money in there 😯
Big Dave(Quote)
Chris what is your honest opinion on having a racist in your team ❓ do you fully support him and what he did ❓ ❓
Big Dave(Quote)
And there goes Croatia
AndrewT(Quote)
dave stop teasing chris now he knows his footy ,you can tell that with his downing is quality posts 😆 😆 😆
batty(Quote)
Batty his team knowledge is top notch for knowing what spot they finished in 😳
Big Dave(Quote)
aye dave just like we finished 4th 😉
batty(Quote)
😉 yeah but we should have finished in 3rd 😀
Big Dave(Quote)
dave we both know we will win 3 cups next season and challenge for the leauge 🙂
batty(Quote)
Good article Premandup. You’ve summarized what makes a big club nicely. I think as far as the Prem is concerned Liverpool have a lot more to prove than we do next season. To me they have not put themselves in position to get back into the top 5 either with players or their new manager. We have a better chance depending on what happens this off season of course. I think we might lose one or 2 good players but we will bring in 4 or 5 of high quality thanks to Carr. And Aston Villa aren’t in position to do anything at all in the league as far as I can see. Lets discuss it again at the half way mark of the coming season! 😆
GeordieTwo(Quote)
Anybody think McGeady and Doyle would fit into our squad
Toby le Rhone(Quote)
Would love to bring in McGeady, not so sure about Doyle although he is a hard worker. Why would McGeady want to play in Moscow? It must be the money so he wouldn’t fit with us probably. I think we will see more coming from the French and German leagues. Would love to get a good hard tackling German at the centre of our defence and leave the pretty foot work to Colo. 😉
GeordieTwo(Quote)
GEORDIETWO @136
how can you say that about rodgers he’s a good manager not saying pardew isnt but he was sacked from his last two post the later being a league 1 side, rodgers has better pedigree than pardew, do you think because you finished higher than us that makes you a bigger club you did better tan us but your certainly not bigger, we just have to improve on this dismal season which newcastle have to try retain that possition i think youve got more to prove, my guess newcastle want cope with the extra games because of there fast style and not so good defensively without there pace and energy newcastle have nothing
chris(Quote)
GeordieTwo we have a hard tackling Geordie at the centre of our defence 😉 .
As for Mcgreedy or Doyle I like Doyle but wouldn’t want Mcgreedy
Big Dave(Quote)
Not sure about Mcgeady haven’t seen that much of him, Doyle is a grafter but as a goal scorer he’s a steaming pile of horseshit….that’s a no by the way 😉
richietoon(Quote)
Chris@139 You really don’t pay attention do you. Newcastle had the best defensive record up until we lost S.Taylor ,then we struggled ,but funnily enough managed to finish above you. You say our ‘weak ‘ defence is our achiles heel but Saylor is now fit again and we will also strengthen at the back and as you rightly point out we have pace in our side and imo much better strikers than you . Bearing these things in mind we should be o.k ,I’m not saying we’ll win the league or even be top 4 as I don’t see it as a divine right to finish top 4 ,I leave that mentality to the likes of you. 😉
kimtoon(Quote)
Richietoon, reading between the lines, I reckon you’re not that keen on Doyle….. 😆 😆 😆
Munich Mag(Quote)
Agree with you Big Dave but Saylor is injury prone sadly for us. How many games has he missed in the last 3 seasons? Too many by far. We need another excellent CB because Willo just doesn’t cut it. As I said Chris let’s wait to the halfway mark of the season to test our theories out. I can’t see you getting back in the top 5 with that squad. Your best player Gerrard is getting old and injury prone. Suarez is a decent player although generally only an average finisher but a loser as a human being. Probably should be playing alongside Barton. They could spit and poke out each others eyes. Lovely pair of lads.
GeordieTwo(Quote)
Kim but don’t forget the dippers have glenda Johnson and he is one of the best defenders in the prem 😆
Big Dave(Quote)
Well said Kimtoon. I think Chris should be getting the point by now. 😉
GeordieTwo(Quote)
Dave 😆 @145
Dave@129 Me thinks Chris has selective reading as completely bypassed your question . 🙄 Then again can understand it as very hard to justify his actions. 😳
kimtoon(Quote)
MM…he certainly puts in the graft, just a **** goalscorer thats all…..in my humble opinion of course 😉
Dave…but Glenda was picked for the England squad, he must be good 🙄 😉
richietoon(Quote)
GeordieTwo he has had a few bad seasons injury wise but I think it’s more down to bad luck rather than prone 😉 . but we do need a far better CB than Willo as he’s like a rabbit in the headlights, and then Saylor and the new one can fight it out for 1st choice
Big Dave(Quote)