TV money being poured into football has changed the landscape of the game, even just in the last ten years or so. Being a lifelong NUFC fan in my mid-twenties and having lived in different areas of the UK, I always come across the debate of exactly what makes a ‘big club’.
With Newcastle returning to the Premier League, there is a lot of debate on what they can achieve and where they ‘belong’. The main thing that irritates Newcastle fans is the myth levelled at them that they expect too much, Champions League football (as Craig Bellamy incorrectly stated recently) or even when Sir Alex Ferguson said we expect to “win the World cup.” A team that is entertaining to watch, has pride in the shirt and is competitive in the top flight is pretty much all we want.
That being said, are Newcastle a big club? Let’s analyse a range of factors to measure just where we sit in the modern game.
Success on the pitch
This tends to be the main yardstick for measuring the size of club, so let’s look at three factors as part of this; average league position, trophies won and European football participation.
Average league position – 9th
Sky Sports recently published a study highlighting showing each club’s average league position. The data has two factors, each team had to appear in the top four divisions for at least 15 seasons and the average is taken from the 1967/8 season onwards.
| Rank | Team | Average league position |
| 1 | Liverpool | 3.44 |
| 2 | Arsenal | 4.96 |
| 3 | Manchester United | 5.08 |
| 4 | Tottenham Hotspur | 8.882 |
| 5 | Everton | 9.00 |
| 6 | Chelsea | 10.86 |
| 7 | Manchester City | 13.38 |
| 8 | Aston Villa | 14.88 |
| 9 | NEWCASTLE UNITED | 15.00 |
| 10 | West Ham United | 15.06 |
This is a really useful measure as getting an average from such a long period of time covers both good periods and the darker times. Newcastle sitting 9th and in striking distance of a few teams above feels about right.
Trophies won
This is universally the first comment Newcastle fans are taunted with when the big club debate arises. Of course, truly massive clubs win trophies regularly. But does Swansea or Birmingham both winning the league cup once each in the last ten years make them bigger clubs than us? Although we have had a long lean spell, it is not as bad as you would think when you consider there are only really two cups to try and win each year.
Historically, we remain the 9th most successful team in England in terms of trophies won, though a lot of that is not recent of course. It is also worth considering however that there are only 14 clubs who have won a trophy more recently than us in the Premiership at the moment. So like league position, looking at trophies won, we are still around the 9th mark.
European football
As there are not loads of trophies to go around, the next measure of success that stems from a good league position is qualifying and competing in European competition. Taking away the usual ‘big four’, Newcastle have enjoyed some memorable European campaigns.
We have competed in the Champions League on four occasions in the last twenty years, which not many current Premier League rivals have achieved, barring the superpowers. We have also had runs to the Europa League/Uefa Cup Semi’s and Quarters in recent memory.
Uefa composes a European co-efficient ranking. This considers recent European performance and the strength of league you compete in, giving you a score which then determines who is the best team in Europe. Newcastle lie 68th in this list currently and the 8th best placed team in England. This measure again suggests Newcastle are not the largest or most successful team in England but certainly one of the bigger clubs.
Stadium size and fan base
This is arguably Newcastle’s biggest strength. Many clubs would love to have the support Newcastle enjoy and even last year in the Championship our average attendance was 51,064. This until recently was one of the highest in England but now ranks 6th for supporter numbers. Mike Ashley blocking expanding St. James’ Park may catch up with us eventually with many clubs investing in new Stadiums, with Spurs and Everton hoping to move into new ones soon.
One of the measures of a big club is still its support and Newcastle rank highly here.
Attracting big names
A sign of a big club is also the ability to attract big names or stars. This is an area Newcastle have historically punched above their weight in. Breaking the world transfer record to sign Shearer in 1996 was one instance, as was signing Michael Owen for our club record fee of £17m. Although he didn’t perform as hoped, signing a key England player from Real Madrid in his supposed prime was a real coup that not many other clubs would have been able to pull off.
We also famously brought Kevin Keegan to the club as a player and manager when we were not even in the top flight; something that feels similar now with attracting Rafa Bentiez to NUFC. Not too many other English clubs could have attracted him to the club, let alone in the second tier.
Finances
Finances are increasingly becoming king in modern football. The lack of investment in players from Mike Ashley is something fans are concerned about this summer if we are to compete next year. Deloitte publish a useful guide each season showing turnover of all football clubs, which is a guide to their commercial clout. The last report had Newcastle at 21st worldwide, the first time we have been out the 20 for a long while. This places us as 11th in England and the slipping down the list is mainly down to poor management of the club, resulting in two recent relegations. However, being around the top 20 richest teams in the world, whether it is inflated by TV money or not, is a measure of a big club.
Global following
This is an area Newcastle are weaker and are trying to improve. Our income from sales and merchandise abroad is one area Charley is trying to increase with links to the Chinese market and the new shirt sponsor. Being based in the North East is also often cited as a problem to being a truly big club; but as Manchester shows, if you have success on the pitch and finance behind you, location becomes less of an issue.
Interestingly, Newcastle are again ranked 9th for social media followers in the Premier League, which in modern times does show a good indication of a wider following beyond match attendance.
So where do Newcastle sit?
As all of the measures show, Newcastle sit at the lower end of the top 10 teams in England in most areas. This aligns with where we should aim to be competing once we establish ourselves in the Premier League and providing of course Ashley backs Benitez. There are always successful periods and lower times but as an average we are in the group below the big 4-6 teams. With good management, investment and time, there is no reason we can’t be competing in the top 6-8 again and only the bigger clubs have the capabilities to do this.
Money doesn’t make a club big. If that money leads to trophies and bigger attendances and bigger fan base then yes but money on its own.
Stuart79(Quote)
Does it even matter whether we’re a big club or not. Personally I don’t care although there is a sense in which players are attracted to that particular status. The big guy money is what generally attracts a player most.
Off subject – does having a huge amount of players to shift out affect incomings? Something’s holding things up.
georgio(Quote)
if Rafa has only the 7 mil we got from coming up the answer is yes mate
icedog(Quote)
georgio: do we really have a huge amount of players to shift? I would concentrate on the dead weight and there aren’t really that many – Rivierre, Saivet?, Lazaar, Gamez?. That’s not much more than other clubs. Look at Sunderland for example.
Players like Krul, Darlow, Murphy, Hanley, Diame, de Jong, even Colback are attractive to other teams and have transfer value. And some may have a value to us as squad players.
I do agree that there may be a balancing act that we want to sell as well as buy.
We might even get a fee for Saivet. He was captain of Bordeaux so somebody rated him.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
Who cares?.
Here’s another question – do I feel like I’ve been supporting the 9th biggest club for the last 5-6yrs? – definitely not!!!.
Talk about fuelling the fires of those that see us Geordies as delusional ?.
But maybe this article will warm the hearts of the Villa fans too. I’m sure they feel the 8th biggest club in land at the minute too.
Sharpy17(Quote)
I’d say we’ve been a ‘big club’ in the past and we’ll be a ‘big club’ again in the future. We just need an owner who’s prepared to invest the profits that our huge fan base brings to actually build a competitive team.
The fact that Rafa’s still in place makes it at least look like we’ve turned a corner and there’s actually some will to win something, but there’s still plenty of time for Ashley to start dealing from the bottom of the deck again once the season ticket sales close.
DarthBroon(Quote)
Eric – Riviere, Hanley, Murphy, De jong, Saviet, Lazaar, Gamez a goalie or 2 and maybe Colback. That’s a lot of deals to be done and we will probably get less than £10m for the lot.
georgio(Quote)
20 million coz Darlow, Hanley, Murphy and Colback will bring in that amount by themselves.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
If we buy correctly we have a shot at 7th. I don’t care how many players Everton buy the Lukaku/Rooney deal will send them backwards. Where will they replace Lukaku’s 25 goals? They are not getting Kane, Aguero or Sanchez, they are getting Rooney who has 13 in the last 2 years.
They will try to shoehorn Wayne into the team just like Man U did and just like Mr. Roy did. They are much worse off because Rooney doesn’t have the first touch or vision for a midfielder. If they play him up front he simply doesn’t score enough goals. He comes back to the halfway line, sprays a pass to the other wing and disrupts the shape of the team and is not there to receive the ball back because he is out of position.
This is a massive step backwards for Everton.
I might change my mind a little if they get Giroud and smell the coffee about Wayne.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
I would say Newcastle is a big club certainly. Huge fanbase, and there is a history of cups albeit long ago. The media has a real thing for us too, they hardly ever mention Leicester now and they won the PL 2 seasons back !
On tv live for 5 of our first 7 games next season shows the pull of the club and how much sky want to broadcast a full stadium. I am certain Manure, Chelsea et al wouldn’t have the crowds we do after so many barren years.
kimtoon(Quote)
I see we have rejected a £5m bid from Middlesbrough for Darlow…
Stuart79(Quote)
As a comparison, we are wondering if Rafa will let Mitro go. In his first and only season in the PL and under McClaren he had 9 goals in 34 games. Last year Rooney scored 5 in 25. Please Everton, make it happen, the prodigal son needs to return.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
Bradley Lowery
@Bradleysfight
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My brave boy has went with the angels today 07/07/17 at 13:35, in mammy and daddies arms surrounded by his
Rest peacefully Bradley 🙁
kimtoon(Quote)
Kim – did you see Defoe talking about him yesterday?.
RIP young Bradley
Sharpy17(Quote)
The poor lad has suffered for a long time poor brave soul,makes you feel there is no justice in the world at times,RIP son
Icedog(Quote)
Sharpy, I did mate, even though he knew this was coming I reckon it will hit him like a ton of bricks. His feelings for the lad were palpable . God only knows how his mum and Dad feel . Heartbreaking.
kimtoon(Quote)
What is Darlow worth?
I am happy with Elliot and Krul with Woodman as backup. It is surprising how much Krul’s stock has dropped. He is a good keeper who lost a little bit of form but had some really good performances in the past 5 years. I think it is all about the high press and playing from the back. Keepers who are also footballers are valued much more highly with Managers like Pep, Poch and Klopp in charge.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
Well little Bradley Lowery has passed away at 6 yrs old. Such a brave little lad. He was a Sunderland supporter and mascot but colours don’t matter in situations like this. So sad. My heart goes out to Bradley and his family and may he now rest in peace. In his 6 short years he affected so many people’s lives and was an inspiration to so many with his indomitable smile and incredible bravery. From a toon army supporter to a Sunderland supporter, rest in peace little man. Rest in peace.
Dubai Toon(Quote)
Huddersfield make their sixth signing in a week 😯
Icedog(Quote)
Sels makes a right balls up in the first minute in his first game for new club one nil down already
Icedog(Quote)
Lee Ryder says HBA return “strikes a cord” with some supporters. Chief Sports Writer, 25 years in the business and cannot even spell chord correctly. Maybe it is autocorrect on his twitter, but still.
The Chronicle is one of the worst sites for mistakes on their website. Even worse than The Guardian. They seem to have about 50 writers and no sub-editors.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
Little Bradley and other long suffer innocent children, 5-y-o in London punched to death in a playpark by his Step Dad because he lost his shoe. Watching a 2-y-o pulled deceased from a neighbours pond, children traffiked and/or raped all over the world. Gay people stoned and set on fire, family members kidknapped and beheaded by drugs gangs for refusing to get involved in Cartel activity. Serial rapists and Serial murderers. Good honest people killed at young ages and people starving all over the world.
There is no God to me and if by some unlikely chance there is, then he/she/it is a sadistic nasty c**t.
shamrock(Quote)
Kim – yeah footballers get a bad press sometimes & Defoe has had his fair share. But that was sincere yesterday & he genuinely loves/loved the kid. I reckon he’s made the lads last 6mths to 1yr a lot happier.
Having a fit & health 8yr old lad myself my heart goes out to his parents. They’ve taken some stick as well, but I think they’ve done their best by him – he could have wasted away in a hospital bed. But they have made him happy in those situations where he’s been the mascot. They’ve raised awareness & also created some happy memories for themselves too – which is important.
My boy got an extra big hug off his dad tonight.
Sharpy17(Quote)
Sham – I don’t want to start a religious war on here, and I have no issue with believes – my Gma has a deep faith. But I am a complete non believer mate.
Sharpy17(Quote)
Yeah believe what you want if it keeps you on a straight path, but it is not for me and seems like it has been used historically and currenrly to control and abuse people.
Meanwhile, I have seen the Selz incident. I don’t think it is his fault. The defender pmayed the ball short to him. The other defender lost his man. Selz could nkt dive to save the ball (sending off and penalty) and had no time to get in front of the ball before the forward.
shamrock(Quote)
Are Newcastle a ‘big club’ ?
On what scale?
In the world – versus Madrid, Bayern, Barca (anyone who gets to the semis of the champions league)
In the premier league (anyone who consistently finishes top 4-6)
I don’t get what the comparison is..are we on about Everton as they are above us? (Interestingly lost more games in the premier league than any other team – helps if you’re never relegated)
A big club in whose eyes? Players? Fans? Business? Managers? Squirrels?
If Newcastle were a big club there would have been an offer Ashley couldn’t refuse.
In Newcastle city the club is the centre of the universe but outside of it? Howay.
Lots of fans all over the world who are just as passionate don’t get me wrong but it takes a generation to build that, not a couple of seasons.
Our ‘generation’ was short lived with nothing to show for it.
Guess you could say that the crux is not whether NUFC is a big club but how highly rated their stature is in the footballing community.
Then you can talk about attracting signing and Rafa vs money and success.
Moreno(Quote)
in a nutshell. we could be a big club and with Rafa at the helm we’re closer than we ever were over the last several years. Unfortunately Ashley keeps holding us back.
I can see a fall out on the horizon
Gashley(Quote)
so we keep waiting…and waiting…. players returning, friendlies around the corner.
Unlike Huddersfield and others, who get their targets in, despite the cost. we still haggle for weeks over 1 player.. continue with the policy of getting the funds in before we purchase
.
Ashley is a business man, has no affection for the toon. If he did he’d realise that player will move on and funds will be a vailable in time.
as always, I see us late to the party and Rafa will be peeved
Gashley(Quote)
The lack of action is certainly a worry, I don’t consider a guy who was already here on loan and a guy we’ve taken weeks to get over the line as showing intent, far from it.
kimtoon(Quote)
Please not Adama Traore , he is pace only, Sissoko mark 2.
kimtoon(Quote)
Mirror FootballVerified account
@MirrorFootball
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LITTLE PEA demanding £140,000-a-week from West Ham to complete £13million transfer
Little pea big fee 😆 Will wet spam cave in though ?
kimtoon(Quote)
mind you that’s £3m in wages over 5 years as someone pointed out plus the £13m transfer fee so £16m in total. That’s not so bad for a quality finisher. Then again how much does the agents want 🙄
kimtoon(Quote)
Why are so many people onbthe Chron voting in favour of a move for Traore? 3 assists and no goals in 37 PL games.
I have seen him play but also not heard of him and his stats do not say a lot. We need to be aiming higher.
shamrock(Quote)
I don’t think it’s Ashley holding us back on transfers. It’s probably the amount of question marks against us when players consider coming. I reckon we’ve been knocked back several times already by players we’d like. As for the Lejeune deal, that was finalised weeks ago we were just waiting for July to register.
We still know nothing about the team we’ll have in August. Frustrating.
georgio(Quote)
Why are we not in for Chacharito? He is quality and available for a good price.
shamrock(Quote)
We are not a big club because we have won **** all. All fair weather supporters around the world generally jump on board and support the top teams in each league. It goes for most codes of sport.. how many Chicago Bulls fans signed on during the Jordan/Pippen era.. now ask any kid about the Bulls and all they will talk about is Steph Curry and his Golden State Warriors team.
People naturally follow the popular things in life.. That’s why Newcastle will never be a big club whilst we meander around the bottom of the table.
.
Aussie(Quote)
http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/what-newcastles-grand-plan-time-13300717
kimtoon(Quote)
It’s all relative. We are a big club compared to Hudsersfield and Brighton. Massive compared to Charlton and Hartlepool. Tiny compared to Man Utd and Liverpool and miniscule on a world stage. In twrms of the English Leagues, we belong in the Top 10 to mid table, with the occasional relegationnbattle and occasional jaunt into Europe.
And we are definitely bigger than Sunderland.
shamrock(Quote)
So we are medium sized club. Bigger than some, smaller than others…
Not a big club though
.
Aussie(Quote)
Kim that was a good read by Mark Douglas. I guess we need ro concentrate on consolidating our PL status this term and then push on in other areas next term.
shamrock(Quote)
Agree Sham, bit of an eye opener too I thought. Then again I have been saying how I think teams are stealing a march on us under Ashley’s ownership. Agree on little Pea too mate, now that’s a signing that would really please me and seems a fair price too in todays market. As for Traore, from what I have seen he is pace only, bit like Sissoko so , meh, not for me like.
I know many won’t agree but I would love Benny back and he is free isn’t he ?
kimtoon(Quote)
And what’s with the Chinese interest, all gone very quiet hasn’t it, couldn’t of been a smoke screen to cover for lack of effort in transfer market could it? 😉
kimtoon(Quote)
I don’t think we’re a ‘big club’ anymore, not that it matters to me. We are just a bigger club than a lot of others, including current PL clubs. We are also regionally the biggest club in the North East of England and north of Manchester City (I don’t count Burnley as a big club sorry Burnley fans) which is quite a large area to cover.
Even last season though a Sunderland or Middlesborough fan could have said, ‘but you’re not even in the PL, how can you be a big club?’. 😯 What would your argument be to prove otherwise? 😕
RIP Bradley.
DJG(Quote)
Traore Doesn’t do it for me. He did very little for Middlesbrough. Lots of tricks and pace but no end product at all.
Stuart79(Quote)
Kimtoon: 140k a week is 7.3 million a year. Over 5 years that comes to $36,400,000. Therefore, the total cost of the contract would be about $50,000,000.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
Of course, you could put that in the context of staying in the PL which is about 150 million a year. So, over the course of 5 years that is $750,000,000.
Compare that to The Championship where you have parachute payments but also hardly any TV money. You are talking 150-200 million tops (not including gate receipts and commercial revenue) if you stayed there the full 5 years. So yes, if one or 2 players on high wages keeps you in the PL the gamble would be worth it.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
Pounds, not Dollars, sorry. My keyboard is set to US.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
Massive mistake by Everton including Rooney in the Lukaku deal. They should have just accepted Chelsea’s counter offer. Lukaku had 43 goals in the past 2 years and Rooney had 13. I am not saying it is a straight swap but psychologically in the minds of some of their fans he will be the replacement. He will expect to play as well, so it will be a massive shock to their system when they see an overrated clogger on 150k a week.
This will end in tears.
Of course, them being scousers, they will say that it doesn’t matter because they made such a big profit on Lukaku. It does matter though, because they had a choice on Rooney and he will take them backwards and be undroppable for a while. Look how that worked out for Mr. Roy.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
I hope we finally get Andreas Samaris soon. He looks a real quality player, and the type of midfielder we desperately lack.
That Traore had something like the most dribbles in the PL last season – or was up there with the likes of Hazard. Trouble is, if there is no end product to those dribbles, that doesn’t really count for much.
Now I know Boro were very defence minded under Karanka (spell) – so maybe the Boro way didn’t properly showcase what the lad could do – if there is nobody advancing with him, then there is nobody to pass to at the end of the dribble.
His pace & ability to go passed players is a danger – and the way a lot of PL teams are setting up with these advancing full backs – who knows?! – I’ll go with what Rafa thinks
Sharpy17(Quote)
Of course, this is all relative. Just look at the deal NUFC are talking about for Samaras. He would cost a minimum of 15 million. Lets say we have to pay him 75k a week which is about 4 million a year. On a 5 year deal that is 35 million total.
So, Chicharito doesn’t look as expensive when you consider they are a similar age and Chicharito is proven in the PL, AND, most importantly, he brings the most valuable commodity – GOALS.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
missed this the other day, not just our manager getting frustrated then
John CrossVerified account @johncrossmirror · Jul 6
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Furious Antonio Conte’s growing frustrations over transfers at Chelsea raise serious questions
kimtoon(Quote)
John CrossVerified account @johncrossmirror · 7h7 hours ago
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John Cross Retweeted Manchester United
As reported in yesterday’s Mirror, Antonio Conte will be fuming and his future in some doubt now. Everything else after Lukaku is 2nd best
😉
kimtoon(Quote)
Eric, sodding hell I didn’t check the maths of what someone posted, obvious really , doh. yeah not so good is it. 😳
kimtoon(Quote)
Kimtoon: John Cross is an idiot. He is on Keys and Gray all of the time and is a massive Arsenal fan who purports to have the inside track on them. I don’t know who his sources are but he is wrong about 90% of the time. Anything he says about Chelsea is pure speculation, or in this case common knowledge because Chelsea put in an 11th hour bid for Lukaku. Him and Neil Ashton seem to be in a competition for who can suck up the most whilst at the same time be wrong the most.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
Kim – whatever these pundits say about Lukaku against the big teams – the lad will give you in the region of 25 goals a season – and he’s still early 20s.
Him & Kane are the forwards to have IMO.
If Chelsea allow Man Utd to sign him, they are allowing them back into the league in my opinion.
Sharpy17(Quote)
Agree Sharpy, with one caveat. Morata is just as good as both Kane and Lukaka (I watch every Real Madrid game) so if they get him it really will be game on, especially with Man City spending 250 million pounds.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
Eric – I rate Morata, but the 2 I mention are proven & established PL forwards doing it in consecutive seasons now. You’d expect Morata to get on alright, but there is still an uncertainty with him that isn’t there with those 2.
Sharpy17(Quote)
I think it’s a bit dangerous us fans looking into a transfer in its entirety to be honest.
If we did that, I’m not sure we would be keen on many targets at all.
Andre Gray for example is a £10m – but is wanting £75k pw (which is nearly half of Hernandez) but still works out at £19.5m over that 5yrs … £29.5m for Gray.
But in reality – how many players see out a 5yr contract?!.
We could sign him for £10m, he could have a great season & we could sell him for £25m plus.
Sharpy17(Quote)
Or Spurs could sign Sissoko on 100k for 5 years + 30 million transfer. That’s 55 million and they are stuck with him unless they give him away 🙂
Eric Sykes(Quote)
? There is that too.
Sharpy17(Quote)
Agreed. He looks like a total headless chicken, an example of the modern day athlete (sprinter) turned footballer. In that 16/17 youtube vid of him, it is just full of clips of him burning past 4-5 players with pace and then passing the ball to the opposition. 😕 I think Atsu would do better and to be fair to Atsu at least he has a shot on him and has scored some crackers, including that direct freekick at Cardiff.
DJG(Quote)
I agree. Atsu over Traore. We need to aim higher.
shamrock(Quote)
Aarons has as many tricks and can score. IF, IF, IF he can stay fit.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
We still have an awful lot of dead wood to shift as well, reckon in comings dependent on that to a point.
kimtoon(Quote)
Papers reckon Jesus Navas on a free. He was meant to be returning to Seville but they won’t pay more than £25k pw for him.
He’s another speed machine, but 31 now.
Sharpy17(Quote)
Trump is insane.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
The German people were once taken over by a madman, Hopefully, that will not be true of the American people who liberated the world with the help of Britain from tyranny.
Angela Merkle played Beethoven’s 9th to Trumpy last night. Ode to Joy. Hopefully he can wake up and not be such a c@nt.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
Eric, Ivanka strikes me as more intelligent than her Dad, probs for the best she sat in for him briefly but I’m sure it’s ruffled a few feathers. Not at all surprised by this .
kimtoon(Quote)
The daughter wife. the one he said he would like to fck if she wasn’t his daughter. Trump is insane.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
But, changing the subject. I do have tickets to see The Chicago Symphony Orchestra play Beethoven’s 9th next month.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
And UB40. I am not a total snob.
Eric Sykes(Quote)
Eric, He does have a disturbing affection for her for sure.
kimtoon(Quote)
I demand a Trump free blog!!
I agree with you Kim – bring Benny back. 1 Year loan maybe and see how it works out. Even with his ups and downs he’ll influence a dozen games a season which could keep us up. Navas or Benny? Traore or Benny? The no 10 we need.
georgio(Quote)
How about a football free blog georgio, since nowt seems to be happening at NUFC?
Eric Sykes(Quote)
Who do we play next Friday? Hearts, is it? I think Man U have Real Madrid that day.
Eric Sykes(Quote)