Not purely because we’ve not done a lot in the transfer market, but mainly because we have problems in the striker department that have been heightened by the apparent breakdown of relations between United and star striker Papiss Cisse.
Long story short, Cisse is not happy about wearing the new club sponsor on his shirt as their exorbitant interest fees and charges go against his religion. The club are also not happy that he is currently refusing to wear the brand and with no agreement reached Cisse has found himself frozen out at what is arguably the most important time of the season for a professional football player.
Now I’m not so sure where I stand on this and I don’t want it to turn into one of those articles where religion is at the forefront of discussion. Yes Cisse has worn a short with Virgin Money on the front and on that basis there is little difference between one lending company and another, but companies like Wonga have come under ethical scrutiny in general just recently, even without the religious beliefs behind it.
At the end of the day a resolution needs to be found. There is precedent for a resolution as evidenced by Freddy Kanoute and Sevilla, with Kanoute being given special dispensation to not where the shirt of a gambling firm who sponsored the club. Surely something similar can be agreed upon in this instance?
Cisse’s argument is weakened further by the acceptance of his colleagues, some of whom are also Muslim, who seem happy enough to wear the shirt and the sponsor on the front of it. Does that mean Cisse has stronger beliefs than the rest of them?
I’m not interested in politics or religion in fairness, but I do feel slightly nervous about this one as it has such an impact on our team. Cisse is vital to us and even though he misses chances (as all strikers do I’ll add!) he still scores the bulk of our goals. Without him, or with him sat on the sidelines instead of being out on the pitch, where are they going to come from?
What’s going on?
Good to have you back Toonsy.
I agree that there are things that I would not want to wear on my shirt. However, as a professional sportsperson I would be expected to work with whoever the sponsors may be. If I am not prepared to do that then either I am in breach of contract and hence effectively putting in a transfer request or I have agreed those principles in the contract in the first place.
I believe that the PFA are getting involved to try and resolve this. I’m sure that Wonga would love the publicity that a successful resolution would bring, even if he does not wear the LOGO. So I suspect that this will be resolved without him leaving. It will unfortunately upset pre-season.
Of course there is always the possibility that this is a smokescreen for some other problem in which case he will be off, and although his figures are better than any of the strikers we have been linked with, I think we would make a decent profit on the deal.
Players come and go.
Premandup(Quote)
I’ve said it before but if the dispute is true then it’s **** all to do with religion and more to do with the fact that he wants a move. He wore Virgin Money no problem, they charge interest, he earns his money in the Barclays Premier league, they charge interest and to top it all off I know for a fact that he frequents the casinos in Newcastle 👿
richietoon(Quote)
He is not on the trip because of he is Fasting, its Ramadan to 9 August. He cant be in the sun or train properly. So insted he trains home 🙂 Wonga can **** them self, im a muslim to and love our muslim brothers in Newcastle. And i know the fans also loves them. So lets get behind them and support them United 🙂
Shpetim(Quote)
Toonsy.
I suspect it is a proper load of Wonga and we are not getting anywhere close to the full story.
I suspect it maybe more Rooney like in that Cisse needs clarification of his role and a significant financial vote, I suspect he has been told by the Llambias /Pardew regime that he will get what he wants but the new Kinnear/Pardew combo have said stuff you, you have a contract and you will play where we say.
I further suspect that Ba and Remy have muddied the waters by letting be known why they are at Chelsea and QPR.
Only time will tell, like you I dont buy the Religious/Ethical line, all of which of course have strong merit and agrument.
Tommy L(Quote)
…oh aye, and welcome back mate 😉
richietoon(Quote)
Could it not be as simple as Cisse is fasting due to Ramadan and is therefore on a specialist training regime? . Just a thought.
chaddas(Quote)
The only resolve to this situation is to sell Cisse IMO. Personally I think it’s bollocks. The issue for Muslims is the loaning of money with an interest attached to it – something both Northern Rock and Virgin Money do.
So personally I believe this is Cisse trying to force a move. So lets give him it. Lets get in touch with Lyon (who are sponsored by Hyundai) and work out a swap deal with Gomis or when PSG come for Cabaye say Cabaye and Cisse for Sakho, Gameiro and €10m or something like that.
Sharpy17(Quote)
Actually Tiote, Cisse, Haidara, Ben harfa, sissoko,mbiwa,abeid, and some others muslims too in the squad wich i dont rememer know should all be fasting and stay in Newcastle and pray 5 times and also fast for Allah. But the real muslim sets Allah first, like demba Ba then the rest comes. Wich means that then God will pay Newcastle United and We will win cl and the title soon enough we get the whole squad muslims 🙂
Shpetim(Quote)
Chaddas…That was mentioned the other day on here and I tend to agree with that, it’s the most likely(imo) explanation…and also the one I’m hoping to be true.
richietoon(Quote)
Shpetim – how do you feel about Tiote being prepared to wear the kit mate?. I hate that this is being turned into some kind of race thing.
If Cisse is on a special training programme because of Ramadan then fair enough, but I’d still want him with the team. And why hasn’t Pardew said that?!. He’s explained the absence of Cabaye and other players on international duties over the summer, so why not say Cisse is doing that.
Sharpy17(Quote)
Hope it is ramadan and hence a lode of wonga.
Premandup(Quote)
This really has nothing to do with religion as he has previously worn Northern Rock and Virgin Money Shirts that forgive me if I am wrong charge interest on Loans!?!?!?!? Wonga….well…………. They are a 100% legal company that state all of thee charges up front!! (I do not work for them by the way!)
Would people rather have our shirts sponsored by Casino’s or online betting that really do get people in debt.
At the end of the day it really is not up to Cisse to chose his employers sponsor and if he wants to leave get shot of him now so we can replace him quick!
scott(Quote)
Islam allows followers to not fast during their travels in Ramadan.
geoff(Quote)
Isn’t Cisse going to be available for the first game of the season?.
He should travel, even if he plays a half per game or the last 20mins – he needs the match practice and defo needs to work on timing his runs better.
He can still pray 5 times in Portugal can’t he?
Sharpy17(Quote)
Abeid, Ben Arfa, Sissoko, Tiote and Haidara have hardly helped his argument.
Is this really a religous dispute or is it more to do with the juicy new contract he’s angling for…
CC(Quote)
I think the club need to act quick now and buy 3 CF’s and sell Cisse ,i am with the bunch on here that think it has nothing to do with religion and alot to do with a bigger contract more money or he wants out .
Axel(Quote)
Perhaps Wonga could lend him the extra money he needs 💡 😯
Premandup(Quote)
Typical NUFC this ,pre season starts well a 4-2 win and some of the younger lads putting in good performances . Every one starts looking forward to watching games and what have we , a striker crises and no transfer action , effing typical . Still after supporting NUFC for 43 years you would thing i would be used too this sort of **** by now 🙄 😆
Axel(Quote)
The irony is ridiculous.
Wonga are deemed to be preying on the depraved…..but gambling, smoking, alcohol dont?
Mmmm
Liam Southern Toon(Quote)
I would be very interested to know why Tiote ,Ben arfa et al are all content to ware the strip as opposed to Cisse. While it’s true Virgin Money loan money maybe it’s because they have far lower rates and don’t make huge sums from the poor and desperate in the way that Wonga do 😕 after all most reputable banks won’t loan to those deemed uncredit worthy ,while Wonga give anyone a loan at a cost. It’s still splitting hairs though to be fair as a loan is a loan in the end . It could well be he’s angling for a move and if that’s the case let him go with our thanks ,as you know I love Cisse but no one is bigger than the club.
SSN ,Cisse has opted to stay at home due to not wanting to ware the strip.
Well now we know it ain’t cause of Ramadam. 🙁
Good to see you back by the way Toonsy . 😀
KIMTOON(Quote)
Could it be that Cisse just wants a new contract / transfer?
Liam Southern Toon(Quote)
You mean it’s a load of bollocks!
Why can’t we just be a club that is well run and has no controversy and goes about our job quietly?
It’s just pathetic.
Stuart79(Quote)
i expect there is something going on much different. we have all known about wonga.cnuts sponsorship for ages and only last week cisse was saying he was looking forward to new season and wanted to be played in his favord role.. nothing has changed in the sponsortship area since then…. something else is up.
As for muslims fasting… tbh, and i mean this as no slight at all, they dont fast really. i am in saudi now and have worked out this way on adn off for 26 years… what happens is.. the entire nation just goes into night shift mode for a month. everyone sleeps all day and is up all night eating. As a matter of a fact, i read an article in the Arab news not that long agao saying how food consumption increases in Saudi during Ramadan.
Anyway.. moving on, we are fuked eh, Ameobi wants to go, ba never replaced and Cisse looking like something is up. We said we needed two more strikers.. so what do we do, look to be loosing the two we had. Not to mention perch who played near on 40 games last season., then harps gone…as it stands right now.. we are weaker… as usual.
craig chisholm(Quote)
Ramadan is our way of saying stop to this madnes world for a month. Its the holy month when Quran came to the world til muhammed. Do good deeds, give charity, be kind. Not stay up all night and sleep all day. U stand up to eat 2 houra before sunrise and fast til sunset. And if u thhink that will stop us doing the same as the others that eat and drink u are dead wrong. Remember the OL games when a muslims that was fasting won 10 0000 m gold medal.
Shpetim(Quote)
I think cisse is hypocrite he played last year with virgin money splashed all over his top , he plays in the Barclays premiership and no doubt all the thousands he earns a week is in the bank is earning him interest. So this cannot be about religious beliefs . Let’s face it he was rubbish last year get him sold.
kezman2(Quote)
Shpetim… for sure i am well aware what ramadan symbolizes… its a noble thing but in this modern day world… its fading in the very cradle where it was founded and indeed in many areas of the middle east. i could go on forever with this one as i have so much first hand info on what i have seen over the years out here but this board is not the place for it. This board is all about the footy.. oh and hating Mike Ashley! Ramadan kareem brother!
craig chisholm(Quote)
Ramadan at this time of year this far north means no eating or drinking between around 4am and 10.30 pm. He’s a pretty devout muslim or so it seems. Can’t expect anyone to do the sort of pre season fitness work Pardew wants under those conditions. 17-18 hours is a long long time. Different in Saudi etc where it gets dark around 6pm.
However it does seem there is an issue over wonga too. It’ll get resolved, nowt to worry about. Slagging him off won’t help anyone
georgio(Quote)
Did anyone see much of the game last night?
Haris had a good game and Pardew rated Dummett MOM, but from Pardew I’m not sure that means much.
I really hope Vukic can stay fit for as much of this season as possible, I really see him being a success for us if he can overcome his horrible injury run.
Sharpy17(Quote)
Kim @20 – the Muslim faith doesn’t say anything over 5% is not allowed – it’s all money loaned charged with interest, so Northern Rock and Virgin Money would most definately count.
Wonga have to show the 500% APR (or whatever it is) but don’t forget they only lend over a max of 30 days – so the poor aren’t being totally destroyed. Infact, I’ve yet to read anyone being bankrupt by Wonga – unlikely Northern Rock skanking my Grandad out of his life savings and getting away with it coz they paid him £2k back.
Newcastle have done alot to accommodate the Muslim players – and rightly so IMO. But if Tiote and the rest are fine wearing Wonga, Cisse should be to – if not, I can only see selling him being the answer.
Sharpy17(Quote)
In any normal club you would not even worry about cisse going.. he scored not alot of goals if we are honest last season. Under our great ownership though, we have to wonder wtf we will get in place of cisse should he leave. thats the problem we are in…at least he can score and he is already employed by newcastle..if he goes, as far as i ma concerned, its just another man down creating a void that will not be filled with a top line player.
craig chisholm(Quote)
As Shpetim has pointed out, it’s currently the month of Ramadan until 8th August.
The whole Wongagate issue had been confusing me since it appeared, mainly down to the fact he’s previously played in a Virgin shirt, let alone plying his trade in the Barclays Premier League.
…I was at the dentist today, she’s Muslim and was fasting. I mentioned Wongagate to her, and she suggested that Cisse may only be insisting on not openly advertising Wonga DURING the holy period. As we’ve currently not had any direct quotes from Cisse, I’m tending to go along with her theory, and assume this is just another mountain/molehill press frenzy.
Rodzilla(Quote)
Rodz – that could well be an explanation mate. I can’t help but laugh though. There is probably only you that could get away with posting you took Ramadan advice from your dentist and it be one of the most sensible posts you’ve ever done 😆
Sharpy17(Quote)
😯 😆 Sharpy.
…yeah it does make a bit of sense, as Ramadan is essentially ‘extreme’ Islam – in a similar way that Christmas turns westerners into, otherwise atheist, Jesus-loving do-gooders for a month.
…on my posts, yeah there’s probably a bit of a ‘boy who cried wolf’ factor going on with my posts these days.
I can talk sense when I want to though. 😎
Rodzilla(Quote)
…I just choose not to 50% of the time. 😛
Rodzilla(Quote)
Sharpy @29 ,Yeah it’s a bit of a puzzle isn’t it. The lack of any communication from player or club to clarify things one way or the other doesn’t help. We have the players agent saying he’s been prevented from going then SSN saying that’s inaccurate and that he’s chosen to stay behind due to the strip. It’s all a proper mess at the club at the moment and still no one in either. It’s gone beyond a joke now it really has.
KIMTOON(Quote)
Rodz – I find your sensible ones generally make sense mate – the other 50% generally crack me up.
Kim – **** poor communication is something we’ve come to expect at NUFC now though isn’t it. What we usually get is confusion or lies
Sharpy17(Quote)
Spot on Toonsy! 😉
I wouldn’t have a word said against you! 😉
Troy Stavers(Quote)
Feckin religion! 😈
He’s probably committing adultery left right and centre, gambling and drinking alcohol doon the diamond strip like there’s nee tomorrow! 😯
Is that not what all footballers do like? 🙄
Troy Stavers(Quote)
Good to have you back Toonsy 😉
God knows if there is any truth in the Cisse vs Wonga stories, I just hope that lazy ***** JFK gets his finger out and get us some players.
Big Dave(Quote)
Cisse’s whole life will now be under scrutiny by journalists.
Toby le Rhone(Quote)
want to try Battys interest rates,you would have something to twist about 😀
good to have you back Toonsy 😉
icedog(Quote)
Toonsy – sorry mate, very rude of me. It’s good to have you back authorizing 😉
Sharpy17(Quote)
Lyon want rid of Gomis and Gourcuff to slash their wage bill, I know they are more Frenchies but if Obertan and Amalfitano went the other way – if they’d have them, then I think they could be good additions. Gomis in particular is a player I’d like to see in. He’s a big strong powerful CF and if he stays Cisse could play alongside him for sure.
Sharpy17(Quote)
Sharpy…Obertan ain’t great but as he’s been at Man Utd then to us I’d imagine his wages are a lot higher than the average player in the French league unfortunately.
richietoon(Quote)
Richie ,you never know he may fancy going home and getting first team footie, well lets hope so 😉
KIMTOON(Quote)
Personally, i question who is advising Cisse on this. For me this stinks of hangers-on messing with his mind and it ultimately coming down to more money. From what i hear Cisse likes a flutter down the casinos and its well known he’s going out with a rather buxom-blonde Miss Newcastle – now, i’m not too familiar with Sharia Law but i’m sure there’s conflict there somewhere.
SouthernGeordie(Quote)
Richie – like Kim said, I think the first team footie may be appealing to him in a league where he may be able to make an impact – that has to be better than the toon reserves – If not, we’ll have a whip round on here and make the feckin wages up if it gets shot of him 😛
Sharpy17(Quote)
I got a feeling Cisse is off to a London club Fulham’s new owner will be looking to make a impact on the fans.
KIMTOON(Quote)
Lyon would need to be pretty hard up to want the Head on their bench.
Ice I heard Batty’s rates are very high
Big Dave(Quote)
For me. It looks like he’s made his stance. He doesn’t approve of the principles of Wonga.
How does anyone get over this? You either are against it cos of religious reasons and that must be respected. Or the player goes against his religious principles.
He’s made the stance now. I can’t see anyway back unless he makes a mockery of his religious principles.
Troy Stavers(Quote)
Well the Douglas saga is at an end , he has ended up signing for Dynamo Moscow we dogged a bullet on that one.
Axel(Quote)
https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CCoQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fmatchincome.com%2F2013%2F01%2F09%2Fgabriel-obertan-salary-or-income%2F&ei=pfTmUcboMaWK0AWt74CICQ&usg=AFQjCNGXq9oNV_VwgUde3CrTEVrmFiZNJw
Richie – based on this he’s actually on less than I thought he was on to be honest. Still way more than the useless ****** deserves though 😆
Sharpy17(Quote)
Spot on Troy – the only way out of this is for someone to make a decision and make it quickly. If neither party want’s to move, fine, put him on the transfer list and get a decent return. The situation is probably worse than we all feared and if that is the case resolution is needed.
My real concern though is if we do decide to let him go is we are moving at a snails pace in the market. If things continue like this, we could find ourselves in a position with Shola and Campbell the only recognised strikers.
SouthernGeordie(Quote)
http://www.footynews24.com/lyon-ready-to-part-with-bafetimbi-gomis-1490.html
Bloody hell, scratch the last – Gomis is only getting €3.5m in comparison to Obas €6m per year.
So maybe they might fancy Amalfitano and Abied or someone like that – we could loan them Obertan for the season as well – I just really want the ****** gone 😆
Sharpy17(Quote)
Gourcuff is on €6.8m per year just to round it off. So if Gomis is only €3.48m, even if he wants double his current salary he’d be well within our salary cap.
Sharpy17(Quote)
DAVE Battys rate is by the half hour,only for mates like
icedog(Quote)
Troy…If he was doing it for religious reasons then I’d respect that but he isn’t, it’s just a convenient excuse for him(assuming media reports are right about the situation). The second he plied his trade in the “Barclays” Premier league and wore the “Northern Rock” and “Virgin Money” shirts he lost all right to object to wearing shirts with a money lender on… and that’s without taking into consideration his gambling away money in the casinos.
richietoon(Quote)
And just to add my “source” in the North East(who is often as reliable as Troy’s) has said the Remy deal is done and Bent deal is close…mind he did tell me the Bent deal was almost done weeks ago, so as with all “sources” pinch of salt must be taken…I’m only the messenger, don’t shoot me 😉
richietoon(Quote)
I recall reading somewhere that his problem is more than about wearing the kit; it’s also to do with image rights and being associated with wonga in both club and sponsorship publicity, including incidental association.
Like Rodzilla, I’ve also been told that the issue might only be for the period covered by Ramadan.
brisvegas(Quote)
@Richie
You’ve shot me so I’m shooting you! 😉
Good to see Begas. No doubt a fuzzy wuzzy slant will be put on all things, Cisse, Wonga, Islam and NUFC. 😛
We can’t do anything wrong. 😯 😆
Troy Stavers(Quote)
Cisse has backed himself in a corner by the looks of it.
He’s made his stance.
He either back tracks in his religious morals he’s harped on about being so important OR the club offer to allow him not to wear the sponsor or sell him. Simples. No other solution. 😯
Of course, his agent might agree to allow him to stay and wear Wonga as long as his contract is improved!!!!! 😈
Troy Stavers(Quote)
I was at the Motherwell game. Spoilt by the typical fucktards that turn up for these sorts of events, 17 yr olds shouting abuse at our OWN players, ‘hurry up ya useless cockney c###’ to Elliot and ‘ya f#### ginger dwarf c###’ to Adam Campbell. It ranged from those divs to a div who set off a flare, to older pissed-up blokes shouting things, who really should know better. As usual totally embarrassing to the club and the mothers with young kids etc. In terms of the football. It was pretty poor, don’t for one second think Motherwell are any sort of decent opponent. I was most impressed with the two fullbacks. Dummett, who Parsnip has already come out and praised – and I agree with him, but also Tavernier, who looks a fine replacement for any gap Simpson left. Hard to judge in a first friendly but generally most of the players did okay. Campbell looks nothing to get excited about although to be fair the midfield were hardly giving him chances on a plate. He is tiny and basically useless in the air – hard to see him having much of a career at the toon then 😉 . Sammy Ameobi was awful, he couldn’t make a decision when he got the ball and usually ran out of time. His shots were weak as water, one bounced several times before even getting to the ‘keeper! Like his brother he is far too casual and lazy, not good enough. I’d be surprised if either survive JFK. As Jimmy Hendrix once said, ‘Hey Joe, where you goin with that gun in your hand’.
DJG(Quote)
Troy: you just don’t get it, do you. 🙄 I suspect that the only thing fuzzy wuzzy is your memory and your perceptions of what fellow bloggers are about.
My crusade (seeing as we’re talking about muslims 😆 ) is in showing up that opinions are being treated as fact, or that fact is being distorted to suit personal agendas.
As an example, you say @ 60: “He [Cisse] either back tracks in his religious morals he’s harped on about being so important …” Tell me, where has he harped on about religious morals? One of the problems for fans in this sort of thing is just the opposite of what you say – nobody is sayin’ nuthin’.
Another is this oft mention quote of Kinnears that he will sign somebody before Friday (before he went on hols). Can anybody reproduce that quote? Not on your life. I can’t find it. I can find a report where a journalist believed it would happen, though.
I don’t have any particular liking for Ashley, Kinnear or Pardew. All three have their positives and negatives. I would prefer none of them to be at NUFC. But it iritates the **** out of me when the media assassinates public figures using lies and innuendo. And I also find it disturbing that fans are so eagerly manipulated by the printed word and are even complicit in spreading distortions of reality.
brisvegas(Quote)
So if Cisse leaves we will need 3 strikers, 2 Wingers, possibly a CB if Willo leaves and a Cabaye replacement if Cabaye leaves!
It’s going to be like super market sweet this guy’s!!
Bent, Carlton Cole and Heskey to fill the 3 ST roles.
Downing and Jimmy Kebe to sort the wings
AND
Karl Henry to sort midfield!!!
Nothing would surprise me. Bring on the new season please I’m sick of this transfer bollocks!!!
Oblong(Quote)
Bris, you’ve been talking a lot of sense on here lately. For me, the thing worse than journo lies is when people buy them hook line and sinker if it fits their own narrative.
MDS(Quote)
Bollocks….I missed Bramble as our CB saviour!!! 😎
Oblong(Quote)
Absolutely no quotes from the club or player, so this whole story has had the blanks filled in by the media… 2 + 2 = 5
Aussie Magpie Fan(Quote)
DJG – there are some true morons on this planet aren’t there?!. Had you said they were shouting abuse at Pards or the coaches, I could understand that a bit more but why target Elliott and Campbell?! – dickheads.
How do you rate Vukic and Anita based on what you saw mate?
Sharpy17(Quote)
My goodness grief. 😯 oh dee me. 😯
For the sake of the blog. 😛
I don’t hear my son son swearing but I know he does when he’s with his friends.
When I state he’s harping on about his religious beliefs, have I ever, or anyone said there are quotes? Where do you get it from ? You just don’t get it do you?
So when the journo’s tell us about Cisse having to train alone, do you totally dismiss that cos it’s it’s a journo writing it and there are no quotes?
Begas, you don’t live on Tyneside. Despite your ridicule of people who say they have a source within the club, it’s actually quite a common thing. They don’t know about transfer dealings but they certainly know about issues on the training ground.
Take it from me, Cisse was excluded from training for not wanting to wear the Wonga emblem. 😉
Troy Stavers(Quote)
not wishing to knock your ITK status Troy, but if the squad is in Portugal then Cisse would be training on his own would he not?
seriously I’m sure there is a problem, however as I posted @1 I think that it is Wonga’s interest (pardon the pun) to resolve this even without the LOGO. If that does not happen then I would suspect that it has nowt to do with the sponsors.
Premandup(Quote)
Prem
My understanding according the press today is that the players leave for Portugal today and I’ve just read he’s being left behind.
They weren’t in Portugal at the weekend when he had to train by himself.
I know Begas & Aussie & a few others will say there are no quotes and therefore it’s rubbish and the press are making it up.
I sometimes wonder how some people get by in life. 😉
Troy Stavers(Quote)
I think Troy it’s just that if there’s no confirmation from whatever source then it’s not worth stressing about. Some like to step back and only react after the event, some like to pour over every detail and allow those details to dominate their lives. When those people actively seek the negative interpretation of every word it gets ridiculous.
example quotes “we’re hoping to get a new signing over the line this summer” and “yes we’re looking to get a new striker in” become major policy statements that we are going to fail in our attempts to make one signing, as opposed to a general response to a journo which really meant “of course we’re working on signings, **** off!”
Premandup(Quote)
DJG~@62 Like the Hendrix quote, it ran through my mind the other day with regard to his relationship with Pards 😆 😎
KIMTOON(Quote)
@Prem
I agree some do pour over every article and interpret things the way they prefer to understand it.
However, I wouldn’t dismiss journo s articles outright like some do cos there are no quotes.
You have to use them as corroborative information along with sources and rumour. 😉
Troy Stavers(Quote)
I admire you Troy 😯 After all this time and sooooooo many wrong calls based on information from your sources, you still stand behind those sources and use them in defence while debating on here 😯 😛
Aussie agpie Fan(Quote)